Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community - View Single Post - What was the worst trade in Flames history?

Calgary4LIfe · 07-28-2017, 02:56 AM

For me, it was Gilmour. Not by a hair, but by far.

There are so many different ways of looking at that trade and analyzing it. It was horrific from the outset. Overnight it ended any hope of a Stanley Cup repeat in Calgary, and it singlehandedly turned Toronto, the laughing stock of the NHL, into a competitive team.

Out:
Doug Gilmour
Jamie Macoun
Ric Nattress
Rick Walmsley
Kent Manderville

In:
Gary Leeman
Michel Petit
Jeff Reese
Craig Berube
Alexander Godynyuk

That is awful. There is so many ways to look at this trade - statistically, lasting impact, future trade spin-offs, etc. This trade KILLED Calgary. It seemed to rip the heart out of the Flames. People refer to trading away Ference that year by Sutter as a huge mistake for this reason. Now, imagine if Ference was 10x the player that he was, and he got traded for scrubs.

The good:
Jeff Reese WAS an upgrade on Walmsley at the time. I hate to admit it as I rather liked Walmsley, but he was at the tail end of his career (he played 13 professional games after that trade, including 2 in the AHL). Reese provided Calgary with 1.5 seasons of decent backup duty (yes, sadly, this was the biggest 'win' out of the trade).

Berube I liked as well in Calgary. He was good at his role I thought (enforcer). However, Flames had Hunter, Stern, Sheehy, Roberts, Otto, and even Kyte (sigh). Flames still had a lot of grit after that. It wasn't like Berube was some kind of a need like one might argue for today's version of Calgary. That was still one of the NHL's toughest teams that didn't take any crap from anyone. Berube definitely added to that - and I did like him - but when I am listing an almost pure enforcer as a 'positive' you know I am reaching.

Godynyuk and Petit. They both sucked. Both combined couldn't come close to providing what Macoun did for the Flames (he was Regehr). Both of those defencemen played only 2 and 3 years respectively for Calgary, while Macoun gave Toronto 7 years. 7 good years, actually. That alone was a big loss.

Ric Nattress was already fairly broken-down by that point, thanks to him being such a warrior for the Flames and a recipient of some cheap-ass shenanigans from the Oilers. However, I argue that he was one of the leaders on the Flames, though I wouldn't go so far as to say he was an important piece of that trade.

To add insult to injury, the Flames were the team that also gave up futures in that deal. Kent Manderville was a fairly well-thought of prospect who had yet to play an NHL game. Did well in the NCAA, went on to play well on the Canadian National team, and was somehow included in that trade. He went on to disappoint in his career given expectations, but at that time it was just another slap in the face, while being kicked in the junk.

There was NOTHING in that deal that brought back a long-term piece, or a piece that did well for a single season, or a piece that returned something else remotely good in a future trade. There was NOTHING good about it.

I will argue that if Calgary had traded Jamie Macoun alone for that package, the Flames would probably lose that trade.

There was 'hope' that Leeman could return to form, but just watching him play told you that there was no way he would ever come close to being a 50 goal scorer again. Even on a still relatively stacked team in Calgary boasting Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Fleury, Makarov, Reichel - he failed to turn his game around at all. Over the course of 2 seasons, Leeman played 59 games and recorded 23 points. Fun fact - Doug Gilmour never once recorded 23 or less points in a single season until he retired, 11 years later. In fact, the very next full season in Toronto, Gilmour managed to score 104 points more than Leeman did in his two seasons in Calgary. In fact, he also scored 35 points in that post-season alone.

Let's look at it all combined in an unrefined but purely 'by the numbers' way.

The players that Calgary gave up:

Number of seasons: Gilmour = 11, Macoun = 8, Walmsley = 2 , Nattress = 1, Manderville = 12
Total: 34 seasons worth

Players coming in: Leeman = 5, Reese = 6, Berube = 11, Petit = 6, Godynyuk = 5
Total: 32 seasons worth

It was close, but then you look at how many seasons the players played with the organization right after the trade, ignoring other teams (and ignoring the season they were traded for one another, as it was a wash):

Gilmour = 5 (didn't count Gilmour's 1 game's worth at the end of his career), Macoun = 6, Nattress = 1, Walmsley = 1, Manderville = 3
Total 16 seasons

Leeman = 2, Godynyuk = 1, Petit = 2, Reese = 2, Berube = 1 (though came back at the end of his career for 2 seasons which I didn't count).
Total 8 seasons

Let's look at the point production:

Gilmour Goals total = 220, Goals for the Leafs =131, Assists total = 545, Assists for the Leafs = 321,
Points for the leafs = 452
Total Points = 765

Macoun Goals total = 14, Goals for Leafs =13 , Assists Total = 98, Assists for Leafs =88, Points Total =112, Points for Leafs = 101

Nattress Goals total = 9, Goals for Leafs = 2, Assists Total = 24, Assists for Leafs =14, Points Total 33=, Points for Leafs = 16

Manderville Goals total = 37, Goals for Leafs = 8, Assists Total = 67, Assists for Leafs = 11, Points Total = 104, Points for Leafs = 19

Incoming:

Leeman Goals total = 23, Goals for Flames = 11, Assists Total = 36, Assists for Flames = 12, Points Total = 59, Points for Flames = 23

Berube Goals total = 40, Goals for Flames = 5, Assists Total = 105, Assists for Flames =12, Points Total = 145, Points for Flames = 17

Godynyuk Goals total = 9, Goals for Flames = 3, Assists Total = 30, Assists for Flames =5, Points Total = 39, Points for Flames =8

Petit Goals total =23 , Goals for Flames =8 , Assists Total = 74, Assists for Flames =40, Points Total =97, Points for Flames =48

So, let's add them up.

Out of Calgary:
Total goals: 280
Total goals for Leafs: 154
Total assists: 734
Total assists for Leafs: 434
Total Points: 1014
Total points for Leafs: 588

Into Calgary:
Total goals: 95
Total goals for Flames: 27
Total assists: 245
Total assists for Flames: 69
Total Points: 340
Total points for Flames: 96

I am not going to bother with the playoff numbers (hint: Gilmour was amazing in them for the Leafs).

With these numbers, we can statistically see by how much the Flames lost this trade by. It isn't an exact science, as teams will sometimes trade offence for defence, and these numbers will not capture that. Let's look at them anyway.

Flames lost value in player's career (to determine asset worth in future trades) by:

Goals: 185
Assists: 489
Points: 674

Flames reduced their offence directly from this trade by:
Goals: 127
Assists: 365
Points: 492

The Flames traded 492 points in order to marginally improve their backup goaltender and add a bit more of toughness (that they already had in spades).

They didn't shore-up their defence - Gilmour was great defensively and Macoun was really Regehr back then.

They didn't shore-up leadership - Gilmour and Macoun were both leaders.

That is what the Flames traded folks. That is why that trade is simply the worst ever. There are many more ways to analyze and look at this trade, but by reading some of the comments here, I thought I would take the time to properly show how bad this was.

Calgary traded away 492 immediate points (the points that players attained on their immediate teams post-trade) to slightly improve backup goaltending and add toughness (on a team with Hunter, Stern, Otto, Roberts, Kyte). They also traded away leadership. Traded away 2 members from their 'core'. Also traded away a top prospect.

For a better backup giving them 17 wins in 3 seasons, and a player I liked (but didn't add much overall) who chucked knuckles well.

It is the worst trade in Flames' history. Phaneuf was a bad trade, but does it really compare?

Savard was a terrible trade, but at least you look at it in that the Flames were shipping out a 'malcontent' who didn't get along with the coach (who they then fired anyways, but that is beside the point).

This trade would have been downright awful if it was just Gilmour for Leeman. Gilmour was the malcontent, but why did it get enlarged? Flames missed Gilmour greatly, but they also missed Macoun. They also traded a top prospect too (who didn't go on to meet expectations, but the initial value of the entire thing stunk).

No other trade came close to this in sheer putridness. The entire city was moaning the sheer stench of this trade for years. Every year Gilmour was shown on TV (which was every fricken' Saturday thanks to it being the Leafs and all) something would stir in our stomachs making us nauseous.

That trade haunted us Flames' fans. Every Saturday. Every Saturday where the analysts would show how much of a hero Gilmour was. How beloved Gilmour became in Toronto.

Now excuse me as I puke. My stomach doesn't feel good right now.

07-28-2017, 02:56 AM	#44
Calgary4LIfe Franchise Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Exp:	For me, it was Gilmour. Not by a hair, but by far. There are so many different ways of looking at that trade and analyzing it. It was horrific from the outset. Overnight it ended any hope of a Stanley Cup repeat in Calgary, and it singlehandedly turned Toronto, the laughing stock of the NHL, into a competitive team. Out: Doug Gilmour Jamie Macoun Ric Nattress Rick Walmsley Kent Manderville In: Gary Leeman Michel Petit Jeff Reese Craig Berube Alexander Godynyuk That is awful. There is so many ways to look at this trade - statistically, lasting impact, future trade spin-offs, etc. This trade KILLED Calgary. It seemed to rip the heart out of the Flames. People refer to trading away Ference that year by Sutter as a huge mistake for this reason. Now, imagine if Ference was 10x the player that he was, and he got traded for scrubs. The good: Jeff Reese WAS an upgrade on Walmsley at the time. I hate to admit it as I rather liked Walmsley, but he was at the tail end of his career (he played 13 professional games after that trade, including 2 in the AHL). Reese provided Calgary with 1.5 seasons of decent backup duty (yes, sadly, this was the biggest 'win' out of the trade). Berube I liked as well in Calgary. He was good at his role I thought (enforcer). However, Flames had Hunter, Stern, Sheehy, Roberts, Otto, and even Kyte (sigh). Flames still had a lot of grit after that. It wasn't like Berube was some kind of a need like one might argue for today's version of Calgary. That was still one of the NHL's toughest teams that didn't take any crap from anyone. Berube definitely added to that - and I did like him - but when I am listing an almost pure enforcer as a 'positive' you know I am reaching. Godynyuk and Petit. They both sucked. Both combined couldn't come close to providing what Macoun did for the Flames (he was Regehr). Both of those defencemen played only 2 and 3 years respectively for Calgary, while Macoun gave Toronto 7 years. 7 good years, actually. That alone was a big loss. Ric Nattress was already fairly broken-down by that point, thanks to him being such a warrior for the Flames and a recipient of some cheap-ass shenanigans from the Oilers. However, I argue that he was one of the leaders on the Flames, though I wouldn't go so far as to say he was an important piece of that trade. To add insult to injury, the Flames were the team that also gave up futures in that deal. Kent Manderville was a fairly well-thought of prospect who had yet to play an NHL game. Did well in the NCAA, went on to play well on the Canadian National team, and was somehow included in that trade. He went on to disappoint in his career given expectations, but at that time it was just another slap in the face, while being kicked in the junk. There was NOTHING in that deal that brought back a long-term piece, or a piece that did well for a single season, or a piece that returned something else remotely good in a future trade. There was NOTHING good about it. I will argue that if Calgary had traded Jamie Macoun alone for that package, the Flames would probably lose that trade. There was 'hope' that Leeman could return to form, but just watching him play told you that there was no way he would ever come close to being a 50 goal scorer again. Even on a still relatively stacked team in Calgary boasting Roberts, Nieuwendyk, Fleury, Makarov, Reichel - he failed to turn his game around at all. Over the course of 2 seasons, Leeman played 59 games and recorded 23 points. Fun fact - Doug Gilmour never once recorded 23 or less points in a single season until he retired, 11 years later. In fact, the very next full season in Toronto, Gilmour managed to score 104 points more than Leeman did in his two seasons in Calgary. In fact, he also scored 35 points in that post-season alone. Let's look at it all combined in an unrefined but purely 'by the numbers' way. The players that Calgary gave up: Number of seasons: Gilmour = 11, Macoun = 8, Walmsley = 2 , Nattress = 1, Manderville = 12 Total: 34 seasons worth Players coming in: Leeman = 5, Reese = 6, Berube = 11, Petit = 6, Godynyuk = 5 Total: 32 seasons worth It was close, but then you look at how many seasons the players played with the organization right after the trade, ignoring other teams (and ignoring the season they were traded for one another, as it was a wash): Gilmour = 5 (didn't count Gilmour's 1 game's worth at the end of his career), Macoun = 6, Nattress = 1, Walmsley = 1, Manderville = 3 Total 16 seasons Leeman = 2, Godynyuk = 1, Petit = 2, Reese = 2, Berube = 1 (though came back at the end of his career for 2 seasons which I didn't count). Total 8 seasons Let's look at the point production: Gilmour Goals total = 220, Goals for the Leafs =131, Assists total = 545, Assists for the Leafs = 321, Points for the leafs = 452 Total Points = 765 Macoun Goals total = 14, Goals for Leafs =13 , Assists Total = 98, Assists for Leafs =88, Points Total =112, Points for Leafs = 101 Nattress Goals total = 9, Goals for Leafs = 2, Assists Total = 24, Assists for Leafs =14, Points Total 33=, Points for Leafs = 16 Manderville Goals total = 37, Goals for Leafs = 8, Assists Total = 67, Assists for Leafs = 11, Points Total = 104, Points for Leafs = 19 Incoming: Leeman Goals total = 23, Goals for Flames = 11, Assists Total = 36, Assists for Flames = 12, Points Total = 59, Points for Flames = 23 Berube Goals total = 40, Goals for Flames = 5, Assists Total = 105, Assists for Flames =12, Points Total = 145, Points for Flames = 17 Godynyuk Goals total = 9, Goals for Flames = 3, Assists Total = 30, Assists for Flames =5, Points Total = 39, Points for Flames =8 Petit Goals total =23 , Goals for Flames =8 , Assists Total = 74, Assists for Flames =40, Points Total =97, Points for Flames =48 So, let's add them up. Out of Calgary: Total goals: 280 Total goals for Leafs: 154 Total assists: 734 Total assists for Leafs: 434 Total Points: 1014 Total points for Leafs: 588 Into Calgary: Total goals: 95 Total goals for Flames: 27 Total assists: 245 Total assists for Flames: 69 Total Points: 340 Total points for Flames: 96 I am not going to bother with the playoff numbers (hint: Gilmour was amazing in them for the Leafs). With these numbers, we can statistically see by how much the Flames lost this trade by. It isn't an exact science, as teams will sometimes trade offence for defence, and these numbers will not capture that. Let's look at them anyway. Flames lost value in player's career (to determine asset worth in future trades) by: Goals: 185 Assists: 489 Points: 674 Flames reduced their offence directly from this trade by: Goals: 127 Assists: 365 Points: 492 The Flames traded 492 points in order to marginally improve their backup goaltender and add a bit more of toughness (that they already had in spades). They didn't shore-up their defence - Gilmour was great defensively and Macoun was really Regehr back then. They didn't shore-up leadership - Gilmour and Macoun were both leaders. That is what the Flames traded folks. That is why that trade is simply the worst ever. There are many more ways to analyze and look at this trade, but by reading some of the comments here, I thought I would take the time to properly show how bad this was. Calgary traded away 492 immediate points (the points that players attained on their immediate teams post-trade) to slightly improve backup goaltending and add toughness (on a team with Hunter, Stern, Otto, Roberts, Kyte). They also traded away leadership. Traded away 2 members from their 'core'. Also traded away a top prospect. For a better backup giving them 17 wins in 3 seasons, and a player I liked (but didn't add much overall) who chucked knuckles well. It is the worst trade in Flames' history. Phaneuf was a bad trade, but does it really compare? Savard was a terrible trade, but at least you look at it in that the Flames were shipping out a 'malcontent' who didn't get along with the coach (who they then fired anyways, but that is beside the point). This trade would have been downright awful if it was just Gilmour for Leeman. Gilmour was the malcontent, but why did it get enlarged? Flames missed Gilmour greatly, but they also missed Macoun. They also traded a top prospect too (who didn't go on to meet expectations, but the initial value of the entire thing stunk). No other trade came close to this in sheer putridness. The entire city was moaning the sheer stench of this trade for years. Every year Gilmour was shown on TV (which was every fricken' Saturday thanks to it being the Leafs and all) something would stir in our stomachs making us nauseous. That trade haunted us Flames' fans. Every Saturday. Every Saturday where the analysts would show how much of a hero Gilmour was. How beloved Gilmour became in Toronto. Now excuse me as I puke. My stomach doesn't feel good right now.