[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

Immigration to a liberal society changes people's calues. Kids going to school. The women who are oppressed reloading they have power. Just being in a liberal society liberalizes people.

Look at the older case posted where the man got in a fight with his wife's boss. His wife divorced him. Their kids will have integrated.

The first gen immigrant will always have a challenge integrating. Successful integration is when the kids of the first gen share western liberal values.

All true.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Yeah, but as we see in England and France in particular, that doesn't always work. The most extreme elements aren't generally the first generation immigrants, they're the second generation. The Paris attackers, for example. In theory what you say makes sense, but in practice it doesn't seem to pan out in a distressing number of cases, and it's not entirely clear to me why.

A few things:

• As I mentioned before, less educated immigrants find it much more difficult to integrate into a secular country. Not only are they less likely to learn the native language, they tend to be more religious, and less likely to mingle with locals in their jobs and social lives.
  
• Chronically high youth unemployment. This is especially a problem in France, where most 29 year olds have never held a job. When the jobs are more costly and more secure, then there are less of them at the bottom of the employment ladder, and you have a society where there's a kind of moat between those with secure jobs (the educated and older) and those who don't have any jobs at all (the young and uneducated).
  
• Western Europe is even more socially liberal than North America. More hostile to religion, more tolerant of public displays of sexuality (ie topless sunbathing), public drinking, and other hedonistic vices. A young Muslim man going to university in England is likely to feel extremely alienated from the dominant culture of heavy drinking and casual promiscuity.