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Old 11-15-2016, 11:36 PM   #2029
Illuminaughty
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Originally Posted by wittynickname View Post
I was at work all day and a loooot happened in this thread in the meantime, so I'm going to try to hit a few points.




So basically all our discussion about the economic climate, about coal mines closing down and manufacturing plants and panicking about the Regressive Left was pointless because when all's said and done, data shows that by and large Trump voters actually are racist and sexist? That the media blatantly misled American voters? That Comey was largely at fault for Trump's win?

That link just tells me we've all been giving Trump voters more credit than they deserve. Based on the information in that link, they didn't care about TPP/trade deals all that much, they were too busy being told that Hillary was a criminal and believing it because she's a woman and thus unfit to lead.




And yet, based on the link Girlysports posted--a whole lot of Trump voters actually were racist, sexist, ticked off at the concept of white privilege, and would've voted for pro-Trade/pro-TPP Biden despite their economic standing.




People who freak out about Christmas being marginalized annoy me beyond belief, because it's not just immigrants who don't celebrate Christmas. You have a huge number of Jewish people who don't celebrate Christmas--we need to be inclusive of them. There are people who celebrate any number of winter holidays, and people who don't celebrate any at all. We don't need to force people to celebrate Christmas. I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness who didn't celebrate Christmas, and the ability to easily opt out of Christmas events at school saved me a whole lot of stress and angst and bullying as a child. We have to support kids who don't celebrate Christmas as well.

Literally go to any store, any mall, any restaurant, turn on any TV or radio and you'll notice that Christmas has vomited all over everything. Christmas takes over literally 2 full months of the calendar year. Christmas is fine, no one is trying to stop Christmas.




This is a big part of why I tend to comment so much in this thread, because for as much as many people are insulated in their little bubbles of like-minded people, I'm the polar opposite. I'm a liberal feminist who lives in a relatively liberal, mid-sized American city. Yet the county I work in is overwhelmingly white, overwhelmingly Christian, overwhelmingly heavily pro-2nd Amendment. The county went 70% for Trump. I am surrounded by Trump voters. So while the people I choose to associate with are generally more liberal like myself, I deal with heavy conservatives on a daily basis.




I cannot possibly give this statement enough thanks. The unending condescension about "identity politics" is infuriating, when coming from people whose identities will never result in any discrimination/loss of rights/fear of safety.

Yes identity politics exist, because my existence as a woman makes me uniquely affected by men like Mike Pence and their anti-choice policies. Myself and many other women I know are making appointments for procedures such as obtaining IUDs and other forms of long term birth control, because we aren't sure how our access to those things will be affected by a GOP run White House/Congress/House/SCOTUS.

Gay people are uniquely affected by Pence's support of conversion therapy. Muslims are uniquely affected by Trump saying he's going to ban anyone of their faith from entering the country.

Yes, these are identity politics. But that is because our identities leave us vulnerable to the policies that the people in power are espousing.

Is there more emotion? Absolutely. Does it make us wrong? Not even a little bit. It's really easy to dismiss "identity politics" when your identity is not under fire.




In general, the leftist parts of the Democratic party aren't anti-capitalist or anti-western. As a liberal myself, capitalism is fine--but not unfettered capitalism. There need to be regulations. There need to be checks and balances, because without them, corporations and the wealthy and the powerful crush the average worker. If you're comparing extreme, fringe leftists with people who are fighting for equal rights for the LGBT community, fighting against police brutality, and protecting a woman's right to choose, you're way off base.






Really? Just now identity issues are brand new? What about suffrage? What about the civil rights era? What about the politics of the AIDS epidemic among the gay community in the 80s?

Identity politics have always been there, and until we actually obtain equality, they will continue to be part of the picture.




And yet you're more than happy to disregard my views on these issues, despite the fact that on a literal daily basis, I am dealing with the uneducated, racist, bigoted types who are a huge part of the population of suburban Pennsylvania. You don't see these people, but I do.

These are people I know, these are people I work with, these are clients who come into my salon. These are people I am related to. My experience with these people is valid and important, but all too often I'm told that these are "caricatures" and that it's "more complex" than what I'm saying. Yet those of us who live in the US and actually see these people are treated as if we don't know what we're talking about.


Me sitting here on this forum and saying racist police in Missouri are a bad thing achieves nothing other than let people know I'm a decent person. The people I know in real life already know I'm a decent person. I don't especially care what people on the internet think of me.




No one is saying it's wrong because they're straight. They don't have experience with the situation. A straight person doesn't have to worry about having an alliance with others to give them a place to feel supported, because straight people are inherently supported because it's the "norm." So this hypothetical guy still doesn't have the same view of the topic, because he has no grasp of the effect that something like a GSA can have, thus yes, his opinions are lacking a huge part of the equation. Without knowledge of the consequences, without experience being discriminated against, this person cannot get a full, 360 degree view of whether or not that GSA is valuable.

What comes across from in all this complaining about "identity politics" is a condescending subplot that because we're directly affected by certain policies, we cannot clearly think about or discuss said policies, because we're too emotionally involved.
Alright, I definitely had some fun with this whole pro wrestlingesque election sham, of what apparently qualifies as a modern day expression of democracy. If I offended anybody....... well I guess I'm sorry, but there's a conscious choice being made there by the person taking offence. What we saw play out was intentional classic division by polarization, it's A or it's B paradigm. This works effectively because humans have a natural want to identify with some construct, it's our tribal nature. Just look at sports fandom.

I'm not sure if you are aware of how much you are demonizing your perceived political opponents. Saying that Trump won because of bigotry and uneducated voters is ridiculous. A large number of people that voted for Trump this go round, were likely the same ones that voted for Obama twice. They both ran on the promise of some form of change. I understand you are upset that your candidate lost, but try to keep a bit of reasonable perspective. Hillary was wildly unpopular for obvious reasons, people don't trust her. It's hard to imagine her beating anybody in a democratic election, especially given the result. She was being investigated by the FBI for actions that could be perceived as treason, while being able to run for president. You can't get around the optics of that, that's why she lost, not because she's a woman, that's a complete cop out on your part and anybody else trying to make that argument. Yes the media and celebrities definitely helped Trumps bid, inadvertently.

The issue people have with identity politics, is when it is being used as crutch to dismiss anybody's arguments against said (insert issue). It's very telling that the same people preaching tolerance and inclusiveness, are the same ones yelling white privilege when it suits them. It's identity politics that are part of the problem of creating division, and silencing the discussion that needs to take place for people to get to a place of universal tolerance in society. If the cause you are championing can only resort to identity politics to legitimize itself, maybe it isn't a worthwhile cause to be championing then.

Your whole post is one big appeal to identity politics and moral superiority. You clearly define what you are and what you are about, and act like how could anybody hold a different opinion. That's what I get out of it anyway. These are complex issues with nuance, not just it's black or it's white, or wrong or right.

You claim you wan't inclusiveness and equality for all, but how do you hope to accomplish that? Just calling somebody with a different opinion or vote, an uneducated bigot won't work to achieve this goal. You need well thought out arguments, not just tactics of division and dismissal.
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