[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Equality is the path to individualism and "colour-blindness." It takes some significant jumping through hoops to convince yourself that isn't true.

Reasonable people can disagree on where equality of opportunity should give way to equality of outcome. There's widespread public consensus on the former. The latter is a subject of passionate political disagreement. And not only on issues of race and gender, but on class and wealth. We do not have a society where goods and status are assigned by the state. We have a society that is governed largely by the market. Most people who defend the market model are not motivated by bigotry. In fact, most of the immigrants to Canada place a high value on individualism and market values, because most come here with not much and expect to build a lot based on their own individual efforts.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

2. You preach a lot about the negative impact of identity politics, the condemning of whole groups, and tribalism. But here you are: the regressive left, liberals, conservatives, you separate people into those groups plus 2 or 3 others and say "these ones are all like this, they need to conform to this group or else they'll die, I'm not like them, I'm in this group." How can you consciously rally against these things while engaging in them at every turn? You're not against tribalism, or condemning groups, or identity politics, you're against those that don't ascribe to your particular view.

I think Corsi covered this. It's hard to discuss these things without associating the ideas you're opposed to with people. For instance, the roots of much of the ideology I'm opposed to are the anti-capitalist, anti-Western academic left. But I'll try harder to frame these things in terms of ideas instead of people.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I get that you're conservative (even if you play the liberal when rallying against the RL) but your bias is too strong for anyone to buy you as a moderate. It's telling that you're more worried about rudely condemning racism, sexism, and hate than you are about those types of hate. When you think the way we condemn racism is a bigger issue than racism, you've lost the plot completely.

So I'm one of those atheist, pro choice, pro gay marriage, pro gun control, pro public health care conservatives? If I don't meet your ideological litmus test you're in a lot bigger trouble than you realize.

Identity issues have only become the main ideological battle-ground in our society in the last 7 or 8 years, and yet I've been a liberal all my adult life. Moreover, it's possible to be liberal without feeling transgendered bathrooms are a vital cause that separates all decent people from the enemies of progress.

I call out illiberal sentiments wherever I see them being made unchallenged. I've been flamed countless times on the Globe and Mail forums for supporting immigration and defending Muslims from ugly bigotry. But the fact is in my world - the world of educated, liberal, urban Canada - I rarely come across racism and bigotry. It's the unchallenged illiberality of dogmatic progressive thought that I come across far more often. I see it every day in the media and forums I frequent. So that's what I typically challenge. It's more immediate, closer to me. And I may actually be able to change the minds of the people I'm challenging, or give courage to others who haven't spoken up.

Me sitting here on this forum and saying racist police in Missouri are a bad thing achieves nothing other than let people know I'm a decent person. The people I know in real life already know I'm a decent person. I don't especially care what people on the internet think of me.

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

3. Your last point makes zero sense. Who is losing "pro-choice, educated, irreligious, pro-gay marriage voters"? The RL? Who are they losing them to? The notion that pro-choice, educated, irreligious, pro-gay marriage voters are going to join pro-life, educated, religious, anti-gay marriage voters because they feel more "heard" is very imaginative. I don't know about you, but I think most people hold beliefs that are a little stronger than wet toilet paper.

Believe it or not, there are many examples of people doing just that in the wake of the U.S. election and in Brexit. Read the comments in places like the Guardian, the Atlantic, the Economist. A lot of liberals feel they've been abandoned. They haven't changed, but the tactics of the activist left are hostile to their core values. They're tired of being vilified for exercising their habits of skepticism and dissent. So they either sat on their hands and didn't vote, or they voted for the side who they disagree with on most issues, but who at least won't tell them to shut their mouths. You may find that hard to swallow, but it's a fact on the ground.