[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

So in a world where you have Trump legitimizing the far-right, when an outlet like Breitbart who are incredibly hateful towards women, gays, blacks, Jews, etc, etc. now has a direct connection to the White House. When you have a world where Fox News is reinforcing the idea that there's a War On Christmas and a War On Men and a War On Christianity, when these things are patently, ridiculously untrue, how are people supposed to respond?

I was really clear about this. It's frustrating to have to just keep repeating it. I think we live in a constant state of choice between conversation with people we disagree with, and violence. So, to answer your question, we respond to these people with facts, reason, evidence, and we don't respond in kind. Win the war of ideas.

It goes so much deeper than that. They want to make or keep it legal to fire someone if they're gay (that's legal in many states in the US), to keep it legal to refuse to rent an apartment to a gay couple, or to evict them based on that sexuality. It's discrimination in all its forms, it's why there are more homeless gay/trans youth than any other group in this country. Because we should be much better than those places where being gay is illegal and can get you killed--but we still have a long way to go. This society where we can't tell someone that "hey, discriminating against gay people is bigoted and wrong" legitimizes parents who kick their kids out when they come out of the closet.

First, I'm well aware of that - I was using an example to make the point that whatever detrimental effects the policies proposed by the right are, and they are terrible, they are not suggesting that gay people should be killed for being gay. There are degrees of intolerance, and I was explaining to Pepsifree why I condemn ISIS and their ilk in stronger terms than I condemn the Christian Right Wing.

Second, no one, literally no one, is arguing for this. No one is proposing we create a society where you can't tell someone that "discriminating against gay people is bigoted and wrong". Quite the opposite. I'm advocating for the society where we explain why that is, to the extent it's even necessary anymore. The more apt point is to explain how these policies lead to terrible results. Some people may be convinced by evidence and rational argument, others may not be, but no one is convinced by saying "you support that? You're a homophobe, your horrible monster." No one responds to this.

just because we've gained some rights and made some progress doesn't mean we should just sit down and shut up and wait until this wave of regressionism is over because conservatives are going to dig in their heels.

Yet again, no one is arguing for this.

The people who you worry about aren't the KKK. Those are the people you see coming, they're the ones that aren't a surprise. They're the fringe that no one really accepts or legitimizes, for the most part. It's the people who know better but don't want to deal with the ugliness of it that cause the issues. Because then you're just letting it slide, because hey, we can't tell them they're wrong, they'll get defensive.

Yet again, no one is arguing for this.

The parade of straw men is getting a bit tiresome.

These conservative types are not easily going to step aside and allow progress to happen, and after 20 years of Fox News telling them that they're right, that if we could just shut up the elites, we could get back to the way things used to be. So now you have this generation that longs for the days of the 1950s, who are told again and again by their leaders and their media that it's this liberal agenda that's holding them back--when it's not that at all. What's holding them back is their desperation for the past. Their refusal to live in a world that's passed them by, their need for everyone around to coddle their antiquated world view.

Yes, as progressives and educated people on the coasts, we need to see the issues with rural America, with job loss and lack of education and all of those problems, but by the same token, they need to look at the actual world that's now around them and stop wishing for a return to the Good Old Days.

This is a fantasy caricature of the Trump voter that doesn't really reflect reality, I don't think. Which I recognize is a bit of an irony since I just a page ago created a caricature of the well-meaning blue collar family man, but I think this is a pretty superficial analysis of the motivations of "rural America", whatever that means.

That being said, your comment about the "Fox News" version of reality is right, which is really the big Achilles heel in my prescription for addressing this cultural divide. People can choose their own facts, and because of more of those human failings we were discussing earlier, probably will. I don't really have a solution for this.

Or they could accept that they were more educated than their parents, and that their parents were more educated than their grandparents, realize that as time moves on, more information is available and thus the generations that come after them are going to inherently be smarter and perhaps they're worth listening to.

Your position is that every generation is "smarter" than the one that came before it? That progress is a fait accompli? I would say there is no basis for saying so, and that's a remarkable statement to make.

One side is telling conservatives that they need to broaden their world view and be more accepting. The other side is calling Mexicans rapists, saying that trans women are going to rape their daughters, that anyone from the Middle East is a terrorist who is going to kill their neighbors.

Again, a caricature. They're not telling conservatives that they need to broaden their world view and be more accepting. They're telling conservatives that their world view is, in its entirety, evil, and that they're terrible, immoral people for subscribing to it. Full stop.

He won because a whole lot of people decided that racism, xenophobia and misogyny weren't deal-breakers. Their personal concerns were more important than the safety and well-being of their fellow human beings.

Just reflect on this statement. You really think that tens of millions of Americans went into the voting booth and thought this to themselves? You really think these people are, at their core, bad people?

This is why I'm cynical. That sort of cultural fracturing can't be repaired.