[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

My point is you are consistently devaluing the contributions minimum wage workers make. So I was asking how you compare the two, but you choose to not answer and that's fine. I think the best scenario is where both the employer and the employee are able to not burden the economy. Raising the minimum wage may help in this regard, the status quo will not. And yes I'm well aware that some businesses may suffer but am fairly confident the negative impact felt by employers who are employing only 10% of the workforce in this province will not cripple our economy.

I would say it is more accurate that you are overvaluing the contributions of low skill tasks. As to your point, neither of the scenarios you offered me achieves your best scenario. Either some minimum wage workers require some government aid - which burdens the economy in your argument - or some lose their jobs entirely and require government aid - which burdens the economy.

So would you feel that if a worker earns his employer $75k in profit while earning $25k for himself he is a less valuable contributor to his employer than a worker who makes his employer $100k in profit while earning a salary of $50k? The reason people don't want to work minimum wage jobs is simply because they pay minimum wage, there are a lot more unskilled labour jobs that pay much higher because people don't want to do that work. Working in fast food isn't the most complicated job, but I wouldn't classify it as easy either or even enjoyable in some cases. The argument of anyone can do those jobs and that's why they pay so low is misinformed. There are a lot of jobs that anyone can do that pay more than minimum wage.

I can use arbitrary numbers too. How would you feel if a worker earns $25k for himself and only $5k in profit for his employer, and raising his wage to $31k ($15x40hr per week) causes the business to go under, thus putting everyone in the enterprise out of work?

Also no, it is not misinformed. Anyone can do those jobs (give or take a handicap) and when there is a glut of available workers, the wages fall. That actually happens in most industries, skilled or otherwise.

And please spare us the "I did it this way and it worked out fine" the reality is if you are referring to a time period over 10 years ago than that is completely irrelevant to today's economic landscape. Inflation has outpaced minimum wage by a sizeable margin.

Already noted by others, but no, it hasn't.

No, you are continuing to ignore the answers to your questions that are in many of my posts. The initial(potential) job losses that occur will slow down the economy in the short term if employees and employers are out of work due to a shut down, however the lost revenue generated from consumer dollars by those businesses will be spent at other businesses which will allow those businesses to grow and that will create more jobs, plus the other people who will be earning more will also have more money to contribute as well as to invest in potentially starting up their own business which will also help.

You are acting like wage increase is the only factor at play. Even if we ignore all other factors, rising wages will result in rising prices. Certainly the workers lucky enough to still have jobs at the new $15 rate will have increased purchasing power, but it will not rise as fast as you think, because rising costs due to higher labour costs will reduce everybody's purchasing power.

This is exacerbated by the numerous new taxes and fee increases Notley and Trudeau are implementing.

Right now you're reading this likely waiting to type "yeah but everything else will get more expensive" some businesses may raise prices to compensate yes, but you are ignoring the fact that the wages of 90% of the employees in this province will be completely unaffected by this change. Which services that you use will really go up? Groceries? Superstore is the cheapest place to go for groceries by far and their workers make much more than $15 on average. You don't like shopping at superstore? Well then you don't mind paying more for your groceries anyways so the point is moot. Rent will go up? Something tells me the current vacancy rate would slow down any kind of an increase.

Well done anticipating me.

Hint: the prices will go up in the jobs where people are most likely to be making below Notley's dream minimum wage. Further hint: those tend to be the same places you are reading about going under and putting people out of work.

Going to eat out at a fast food place? Those companies have the ability to absorb the cost without raising prices, to anyone who wants to debate this, ask yourself this, why would they be opening up new locations everywhere if they weren't making mountains of cash? Yeah they might try to raise prices, but that will only go as far as out consumer buying power let's it. When the customers stop coming in, the prices will fall, if they continue to go up, that's not because of minimum wage, it's because we're willing to pay way too much for garbage food.

but that will only go as far as out consumer buying power let's it

Bingo.

Small businesses may suffer if they cannot adapt but I'm not sure why you are so concerned about their well being but not for those they are keeping poor. Yes they are creating jobs, but not ones that are a positive contributor to the economy. And yes if they close down jobs will be lost, my earlier point in this post addresses your short term concern.

Your earlier point is so ill-informed and so full of wishful thinking that I can only sit here in wonder at your impressive ability to perform mental gymnastics.

They fact that you say it wasn't easy growing up in and working your way out of the lower class should be enough of an argument in itself to make changes to the system. Did you have kids while you did it? Were you physically or mentally ill? Did you have any additional issues? Think about those folks before you cast judgement.

Once again you resort to appeal to emotion. Once again, I remind you that the value of a task is not the same as assessing the value of the individual. The fact that you continue to conflate the two indicates you are not actually interested in serious discussion.

Do you hold resentment towards society for having it so hard growing up and that's why you don't appear to care that it is even harder now? I just don't get it, according to you you overcame significant odds and made it despite the challenges which is great, I'm sure anyone here would applaud you for being able to do so.

No resentment at all. Merely an understanding that for most, one merely has to apply themselves to advance. Yes, there are people in situations where they need a hand up, and I don't begrudge them the support they do get. But I do not see the value in allowing the majority to become satisfied to do low value jobs.

And more to the point, the argument CliffFletcher has been making and which you and others are utterly ignoring is that the people most likely to lose their jobs entirely are the very people these changes are meant to support. Does society benefit from higher unemployment among youth? You spoke of "near insurmountable challenge in order to break free of poverty" at one point without understanding that your fix may actually raise that wall even higher for many.

Even at $15/hour you would be hard pressed to own a car or an apartment, and if you do it isn't going to be on the high end of either even if you do manage to. What that wage will do for most minimum wage workers is give them a real opportunity to make a choice as to whether or not they want to continue making minimum wage or not.

$15 per hour full time is $31,200 over the course of a year. In November 2015, the average rate to rent was $1332 for a two-bedroom apartment. People in minimum wage situations would be in units below that average, as you note, but we will use this number for simplicity. With a roommate, a person would be paying $666 per month in rent, or $8000. Many utilities are often included, some aren't. This is an arbitrary figure, but lets assume about $300 for what you do have to pay, including internet. Split two ways, $1800 a year. You can get a car for only a couple grand. Ongoing insurance rate between $75-150 per month (assuming your insurance isn't raised by poor driving decisions - at that point, you probably can't afford). Or, you are taking the bus. Low income pass is $44 per month; $528 per year.

At $15 per hour, you are doing just fine. The question, is how the person who was making $11 is going to do now that you have put them out of a job.