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pylon · 09-15-2016, 11:31 AM

I think if the ad was placed explicitly with the purpose of misleading the adjuster, the link forwarded to them as evidence of market pricing, then yes it is fraud. You've created false credentials for financial gain. In my eyes it would be no different than photo shopping together a fake degree and using it to get a higher paying job. Or providing a bank with fake pay stubs, to obtain a loan you don't qualify for.

People rely too heavily on Black Book values as a crutch. It is just a round about basis. Many market conditions come into play. In some cases we are way below book value as they there is mitigating factors that can drive values down. In other scenarios, we go way above book value, if it is a super coveted car, or high demand. There have also been a few scenarios that are hilarious. I remember a Ford Aspire, if you followed the Black Book, was worth negative value if you had a base model in rough condition, no air, or ABS. If I recall the car was worth negative (-$1200) once you took out the deducts. Dodge Neons did this for a while to.

OK, now this is just some friendly OT car buying advice, and why it seems like the dealer is trying to steal your trade....

Jim has a 2014 F150 he bought right at the beginning of a model year in Sept 2013. Paid $50,000 for it. Made a few years worth of payments, and now owes $35,000. Now he's trading it in 3 years later with 60,000 kms on it.

Model year clear out is on and an identical 2016 that lists for $50,000 can be bought for $38,000 with the cash rebate. Also Ford has stack-able financing at 1.9% which drops the value another $5000 for the saved interest compared to a bank. Dealer markup is $5000 on the truck. Wear/tear/usage is another $6000. The truck to a dealer at most is worth $22000 at that window in time. Because a dealer can buy a brand new one with a full warranty on a fleet purchase from another dealer for $50,000 - $12,000 - $5000. +/- $33,000 for a truck with no mileage. That is the starting point with no model year depreciation, usage or condition factored in. Once you do that, now it's worth $22-25000 in the real market.

The Black Book says, It's worth $34,000. More than than what a brand new one can be had for. People get all indignant at the time you offer them $22-24000 at that time, and automatically say "But the Black Book says!!!" My tongue and cheek response used to be, "Send the Black Book office in Markham Ontario your truck, and see if they send you a cheque."

The problem with the Black Book, is they are usually 30-60 days behind factory rebates and incentives on the new stuff, which drives down used values. If you are looking for a deal on a 2-4 year old used car, especially from a dealer, the first thing you do, is call a dealer, and find out how much a brand new one, can be had for on a cash purchase with all rebates applied. Then work back from there.

09-15-2016, 11:31 AM	#367
pylon Lifetime Suspension Join Date: Jul 2007 Exp:	I think if the ad was placed explicitly with the purpose of misleading the adjuster, the link forwarded to them as evidence of market pricing, then yes it is fraud. You've created false credentials for financial gain. In my eyes it would be no different than photo shopping together a fake degree and using it to get a higher paying job. Or providing a bank with fake pay stubs, to obtain a loan you don't qualify for. People rely too heavily on Black Book values as a crutch. It is just a round about basis. Many market conditions come into play. In some cases we are way below book value as they there is mitigating factors that can drive values down. In other scenarios, we go way above book value, if it is a super coveted car, or high demand. There have also been a few scenarios that are hilarious. I remember a Ford Aspire, if you followed the Black Book, was worth negative value if you had a base model in rough condition, no air, or ABS. If I recall the car was worth negative (-$1200) once you took out the deducts. Dodge Neons did this for a while to. OK, now this is just some friendly OT car buying advice, and why it seems like the dealer is trying to steal your trade.... Jim has a 2014 F150 he bought right at the beginning of a model year in Sept 2013. Paid $50,000 for it. Made a few years worth of payments, and now owes $35,000. Now he's trading it in 3 years later with 60,000 kms on it. Model year clear out is on and an identical 2016 that lists for $50,000 can be bought for $38,000 with the cash rebate. Also Ford has stack-able financing at 1.9% which drops the value another $5000 for the saved interest compared to a bank. Dealer markup is $5000 on the truck. Wear/tear/usage is another $6000. The truck to a dealer at most is worth $22000 at that window in time. Because a dealer can buy a brand new one with a full warranty on a fleet purchase from another dealer for $50,000 - $12,000 - $5000. +/- $33,000 for a truck with no mileage. That is the starting point with no model year depreciation, usage or condition factored in. Once you do that, now it's worth $22-25000 in the real market. The Black Book says, It's worth $34,000. More than than what a brand new one can be had for. People get all indignant at the time you offer them $22-24000 at that time, and automatically say "But the Black Book says!!!" My tongue and cheek response used to be, "Send the Black Book office in Markham Ontario your truck, and see if they send you a cheque." The problem with the Black Book, is they are usually 30-60 days behind factory rebates and incentives on the new stuff, which drives down used values. If you are looking for a deal on a 2-4 year old used car, especially from a dealer, the first thing you do, is call a dealer, and find out how much a brand new one, can be had for on a cash purchase with all rebates applied. Then work back from there. Last edited by pylon; 09-15-2016 at 11:34 AM.