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Originally Posted by Crumpy-Gunt

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You make some great points that I agree with. I have a few honest questions for you and Itse and whoever else is here for serious discussion.

In what ways do you feel you are unable to criticize Islam in the same way you are able to criticize Christianity. Is there something you wish you could say and express to people about Islam that you currently feel like would have negative consequences to do so? If so what is it? Feel free to express yourself I dont think anyone here will ban you or have you fired from your job or anything.

I ask because this is something I hear a lot. "You're not allowed to criticize Islam". I think we are allowed to criticize whatever we want in the west tbh. I come from a family that is mostly Muslim and I criticize certain aspects of their culture and religion. In fact it seems like there has been no shortage of criticism of Islam? I'm not sure you could say anything about it which hasn't been said by people before you so I'm curious to know what it is you feel won't be accepted.

I think most people would agree that Islam is probably the most criticized religion of this millennium so far. Do you feel like more criticism is needed or do you feel like different criticisms are needed, if so what should we 'deal with'.

Another question I have is do you think we are as critical of modern western terror and its religious foundations as we are of modern Islamic terrorism and its religious foundations?

Could the fact we continually in the western world elect leaders based on their religious beliefs and that these clearly religiously motivated leaders go on to control supposed secular military forces and supposed secular even-handed global organizations like the UN mean that we are in a way fighting religious fundamentalism with religious fundamentalism? People who believe in a re-establishment of a mythical ancient kingdom vs people who believe in the establishment of a modern religious caliphate.

I really agree with your point that people who claim this is 100% about Islam are just as silly as those who claim this is has nothing to do with Islam at all. I would go further and say people who claim this is 100% about western foreign policy are just as silly as those who say it has nothing to do with the destabilization of the area and consequent gravitation of a small percentage, but rather large number of Muslim people to fundamentalist extremist ideologies.

Another thing I would like to say is if you think you cant criticize Islam here - imagine how it is in the Muslim countries. Shouldnt we be pushing for their freedoms just as much as we are pushing for our freedom to criticize them?

I can assure you the majority of the people in these countries dream at night of a day when they can live in a just secular state with no corruption or discrimination. Perhaps we should put pressure on our governments in the west to stop laying in bed with regimes in the middle east that not only mistreat women, gays, minorities, etc but suppress their own people. Is the cheap oil worth these peoples freedom?

I think Islam has been criticized quite a bit in the west despite the efforts of the so called PC regressive left. Most of it imo has just spread a lot of fear and intolerance for Muslims rather than making any noticeable positive change in the lives of people on either side. What if people in the middle east are secretly crying out for the ability to do the same in their own countries without fear of going to jail and disappearing in the desert or being beheaded.

This discussion reminds me a lot of the discussions about Africa and the continual sore on human consciousness that continent has become.

People A Live in a historically violent and corrupt country. People B in their peaceful and prosperous secular country are bemused as to the lack of civilization. People A have been ruled by the same corrupt oppressive leaders for decades. People B elect a government which supports the corrupt oppressive leader in the country of people A. People B wonder why these people are in the 'stone age' and refusing to develop or advance going from colonialism to corrupt, violent and oppressive terrorist dictator.

How long will it take to realize that people B keep electing leaders with no interest in seeing any change in the country of people A because that could potentially threaten them the leaders of people B economically, militarily etc.

It applies just as well to Africa as it does to the ME. How do we expect oppressed people who are afraid to speak out with no rights and no elections to change their circumstances.

I think people in the ME specifically in the Gulf states, who's leaders (wahhabi kings) literally fund and train terrorists are very interested in change. The common person in Saudi Arabia doesnt want to live in a theocracy but wouldnt dare even mention it to their own family out of fear they may be in big trouble.

Even in other regions I think if people living there felt less threatened by the west and less desperate they would turn towards a more liberal and secular state. But they cant even begin that process because some Nissan Petrol will show up at their door with a government officer named Ahmed who wants to take them for a 'ride' to the desert.

I think the only people who can safely put pressure on theocratic dictatorships that fund terrorists, export extremist sheikhs and oppress their own people; the only ones that can remove these people or at least spur a change in these nations without losing their lives are us in the west.

The illusion or the image that is painted is that 100% of people in the middle east are totally content with things, otherwise they would change them. Trust me a lot of moderate secular muslims are supressed. Tons of journalists in jail across the middle east for simply speaking out. That isnt an environment in which people can exactly organize a million man march and have a safe peaceful revolution. Their armies are literally trained to shoot civilians in any protests.

Criticizing Islam is something we are allowed to do here. Criticizing our governments is a western pastime. Why cant we elect leaders who are able to put pressure on regimes like the Saudis or Mugabe. Why did we nit-pick Saddam and Ghaddafi when there are tons of oppressive regimes we support every day. I mean we just sold 15 billion dollars worth of Canadian made weapons to Saudi Arabia, mostly armored vehicles.. To a theocratic regime that beheads people on live tv and stones people to death. You have to ask yourself if the most productive thing we can do to help the entire situation is to criticize Islam and the regressive left.

While Islam is something that needs discussion. I wish we had 1 million brilliant Maajid Nawaz types we could parachute into the middle east and they would have their revolution and that would be it. But at present if we flew in 1 million brilliant secular moderate muslims they would all be in jail or beheaded by the same Wahhabi kings our governments have been snuggling in bed with for the past several decades.

Well, to start, I don't actually feel I'm less able to criticize Islam that Christianity, but that's because of the circles I run in and I rarely do so in a public forum.

I just think that when I do, the criticism I face from liberals for criticizing how women and children in many Muslim communities (including in the west) should be consistent with their response to my criticism of many fundamentalists Christian communities treatment of women and children.

However, I observe that there is a group of people so concerned about how the majority of Muslims are treated (forgetting about the minorities within the Muslim communities) in their western communities that they forget that criticism of the religion is healthy both for Islam and the Muslims that adhere to it, so long as there is an opportunity for the defenders of the faith to do so as well. This is the group the cries Islamophobia when a person makes a comment about some tenant that appears to be held by a large portion of Muslims, but applaud when you do the same with Christianity.

Should such criticism, debate, and defense become more visible and common, I think that not only will those that practice Islam slowly adjust the practice of their religion in ways that benefit the minorities within them as become more integrated in western society, but that Islam will be considered less of a threat, and therefore Muslims will be treated more like proper members of western society too.

As for the rest of your post, I don't see anything to disagree with. It matches my understanding of the current situation for moderate muslims in the middle east quite well. I too wish there were more Maajid Nawaz types. Since there aren't, we can at least try convince the liberal media to give them a voice more often.