Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse
That is the opposite of what I meant. (I think if you were less infuriated with Crumpy it would be obvious to you too).
What I meant was that the emotionally charged accusations of bigotry distracted from the good points.
Such as
Which I think is relevant in understanding that many things we balk at when the name of religion is Islam and the country is somewhere in Midde-East is considered perfectly normal when the name of the religion is Christianity and the place is a western country. These gut reactions badly distort the conversations.
It's especially weird since I think many in this discussion seem to be more or less atheistic or agnostic, or at least far to the secular side on their religions. People talk about the things that are going on in the Middle East as if religious nutcases never try to set up their own kingdoms of heaven in the west, as if we didn't have Christians literally preaching death to gay people without repercussions, as if we never have our own versions of honour killings, and as if there are no significant political movements in the west who get some of their most central goals straight from religious writings.
And just in general I agree with his view that people are giving way too much significance on Islam here, and are waayy too eager to dismiss the significance of sociopolitical and historical backgrounds. When really I think absolutely every expert on any even remotely connected field would agree that religion is in all this at best one contributing factor among many.
It seems to me that people have a desire for simple answers, and the sociopolitical and historical reasons are just never going to give those, especially since it would take an enormous amount of learning to even get started.
Thus it's just much easier to talk about things that are close and understandable, even if they're only extremely tangentially related. Such as the infighting of a few western liberals.
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Since I'm not interesting in joining the anti-semite vs zionist pissing match, I'll respond to you instead.
I'm currently rather secular, but come from precisely the kind of conservative Christian background your talking about. Unfortunately, the parallels don't really hold, even when generalizing about both religions. That being said, our gut reactions are going to be more accustomed to Christian actions because we living in a culture that is highly influenced by Christianity.
That being said, people who say Islamic Terror is 100% due to Islam are just as ridiculous as those who say it has nothing to do with it.
Yes, there is a sizable chunk of Christians who are Dominionists that want to place western nations under the Dominion of Christ and are very comparable to Islamists.
However, there isn't currently a Christian equivalent to the Jihadists. Historically you might point to the inquisitors, papal armies, Jesuits, some missionary groups, and the Christian imperialism of the 19 century, but those aren't today.
However, even when there are hundreds of influences contributing to a violent spell in an region, religion and culture (they influence each other in ways that are usually inseparable) are the kinds of influences that can make a bigger difference than most as far as affecting an individuals actions in the contest of the other pressures. The point about Korea, India, etc vs many Muslim majority nations is ignored far too often. Sometimes the causes that make the difference really can be narrowed down to a select few things like religion and culture. Of course, such a position would at least need to be coherently argued for.
As far as double standards go, why should I not speak as plainly and strongly about Islam as I do about Christianity. Why should I speak less strongly about Muslims that promote honor killing than I do about Christians who promote stoning gays? I fail to see how whining about people discussing a group they are less informed about will help them become more informed. I fail to see how crying bigot, islamophobia, racist before giving someone else's point of view even a moment's thought helps people better understand the quality of their point of view. It seems to me that these people are every bit as caught up in maintaining simple answers as those who would ban all Muslims because they think it will keep out terrorists.
It's striking how both sides see the other as holding to a double standard.