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Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

The issue is that most Muslims place the Koran and sharia Islam higher than any secular authority,

I don't think this is false, but I think it's a problematic view.

First of all it's impossible to truly prove it statistically. It's not really something a questionnaire can tackle. (People are quite prone to answer that yes, they think it's more important to do what's morally right, but not that many people actually act accordingly. The connection of religion and morality is also a very complex one. Etc etc.)

Then you need to add that many Muslims live in countries where religious fundamentalist violence is a very real threat, so the difference between religious authorities that demand you follow the Quran and secular authorities that demand you follow the written law isn't that great.

And I think most importantly, most Muslims live in countries that have legitimately terrible governments that no sane people should trust.

This also ties into a problem that is often talked about in research into radicalization.

In many countries Mosques are the only places where you can safely criticize the government or the society in general. The natural result of this is that in those countries, the most prominent critics of the admittedly s*** governments tend to be Imams or other strongly religious people. This fact also draws people with grievances to meet each other in Mosques. Which creates the problem that all too often, those young angry men looking for answers and a way to turn their frustration into action are offered only religiously colored solutions and goals.

Can someone name me a majority Muslim country that is more liberal today than it was 30 years ago?

Bangladesh, Indonesia? I would probably say Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan too, although I am far from certain as I don't know that much about those countries.

And maybe the biggest factor in the failure of the Muslim world to modernize is the extraordinarily high birth rate. There's a strong correlation between declining birth rates, increased female education, and economic prosperity. The Muslim world is on the wrong side of all those equations.

This I think is a very good point. It's especially relevant IMO that the Arab baby boom generation is at it's peak right now. The ratio of young vs. old is extremely twisted, yet almost all the political power lies with the older generations, and the oppressive nature of many of those countries offer very few prospects of a better future for all those young people. This creates a lot of tension and frustration that easily turns into radicalism and violence.

But that Westernized class soon had Western birth rates, while the uneducated and highly religious rural populations were still having 4-6 kids per family. Now they've swamped the Westernized class, and hobbled any hopes those countries have of modernization.

I'm pretty sure it's not at all that simple, because the exact same situation has been true in every western nation at some point in their history. Religious families that produce lots of children also produce tons of ex-muslims and many of the most fervently anti-religious people you can find. (Exactly like they do in the west.)

It's also important to remember that the educated kids of secularized parents can also easily turn towards radicalism and terrorism. This often happens at some point during their education, as they start to realize their lack of further opportunities in their societies, and then go find others who share their grievances. Typically in those Mosques.

This is just one more reason why so many researchers talk of the importance of strengthening the civil societies in Arab countries, to create those other safe spaces outside of religious surroundings.

It's also unfortunately obvious that no foreign governments are seriously interested in supporting such initiatives.

Pretty much without fail, the political movements that are born from non-religious starting points have started to demand both of these two things (among many, many other): 1) That foreign governments do not interfere with their countries politics 2) That their countries should stop exporting natural resources as raw materials, but instead should seek more economic independence by developing their own refineries and selling refined products.

Obviously if those latter movements came to power in all those Muslim countries that still essentially serve as colonies for foreign powers (in terms of selling us raw natural resources) they might seriously damage our economies and very likely would decimate many of our big corporations.

Also, just think what the world would be like if the Middle-East not only controlled the oil, but also an equivalent portion of the worlds gasoline. If you think they have too much money and power now...