[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Just so we're clear - you're suggesting the 8 times higher rate of homicide convictions of blacks is due to police and court bias? So thousands of innocent blacks going to jail for homicides, while thousands of whites who commit murder go free?

The racial bias inherent in the justice system certainly doesn't equate for that entire differential, of course not.
But the other systemic issues that work against black people in America--worse schools, more cases of absent fathers due to higher incarceration for black men, fewer job opportunities, etc, etc, etc would have something to do with the fact that there is a higher rate of violent crime among blacks in this country. They aren't inherently more violent due to their skin color, which seems to be the implication you're making.

Also in general there are far more white people in the US who have access to high price legal counsel that could get them a plea bargain for a smaller charge and less jail time. A poor black kid from the South Side of Chicago is going to get an overworked public defender.

Originally Posted by jayswin

I'll take an amateur stab at it. Homicides are just part and parcel to the cycle of violence amongst African Americans, which is connected to the war drugs, which has targeted low income citizens (see: black people).

I get the point CliffFletcher is getting at - that while others are pointing to black people not being given a fair shake by law enforcement, homicide somehow proves this isn't the case because everyone who commits murder is charged if caught, so there the stats can't be skewed.

I just found the point to be disengenous at best, in his continual quest to downplay any perceived struggles or inequality towards African Americans. I guess if we all just said "Yes, CliffFletcher black people just need to be better people and we'll stop looking to blame anyone but them for their struggles" then maybe we'd reach an agreement?

You did a fantastic job of expressing my thoughts here, so I just wanted to give you a quick thumbs up.

Originally Posted by peter12

So we are drawing massive generalizations here, but maybe show some sociological imagination.

One community - in the aggregate - suffers way more internal violence than the other. That said, if you go to West Virginia or Arkansas, you are going to see the same.

So basically you're not disagreeing. If you go to WVa or Arkansas--where the education quality is lower, the upward mobility is much more difficult, where there are systemic issues that hold back a population, they are likely to have more violence among themselves. It's not skin color--its the societal challenges that a population faces.

Black communities are a microcosm of this issue, and it's further complicated because in small communities like that, the Ol' Boys Club is often going to let people off the hook for minor crimes, (my mother's entire family is from rural railroad towns in Appalachia, if you know the judge/chief/sherriff and he likes your family, you get a break) leaving them without a permanent mark on their record, whereas in black communities you have police who often push harsher punishment for the crimes that might be over-looked in those small town rural communities.