Quote:
Originally Posted by iggy_oi
The bolded part demonstrates a lack of consideration for the very possible scenario that Canada post becomes a private corporation.
As far as your claims that the funds will be paid out no matter what, frankly that is an assumption, you can argue this all you want, but there is simply no guarantee of that, if all defined benefit pensions were simply guaranteed then why would anyone ever care about any modifications? People would just assume that any changes would have no negative impact whatsoever, the key word there is assume, assumptions or best guesses leave room for error, which is why it is best to have an assurance. And you may be thinking "but..but..but...I already told you defined benefit plans can't be altered" this is not accurate, most defined benefit plans have legal language to allow for modifications or ammendments, these are there to protect plan members in the event unexpected inflation as well as deficits. The only catch is when the plan is in a collective agreement, the employees have a say in what changes are made.
To the first bolded part is a little misleading, the government did not make a promise, a crown corporation did. If that corporation is privatized, it is no longer a government promise. It's not as if they passed a bill in the senate on this.
And just to further invalidate that statement, even if it was a promise, history has shown that governments have a tendency to break their promises when they are no longer feasible.
My response to the first quote already covers my position on the other portions of this quote.
My assertion is based on fact. As pointed out in my response to the first quote, so unless you can provide some sort of legal precedent for why an underfunded pension must be bailed out by a government even if they don't have the funds or support to do so I hope you will be able to see your opinion as an assumption and not a fact supported position.
The bolded portion is again strictly your opinion on the matter, my guess is you haven't spoken to the majority of CUPW members, so to speak on their behalf in order to make your argument doesn't add anything credible to support your position.
As far your opinion on defined benefit pension plans, if you are saying Canada post is run by the government, don't you feel it is a little bit hypocritical on their part to claim these plans are doomed to fail while all politicians get to keep their defined benefit pensions?
Edit: my last paragraph got me thinking how interesting it is that people in here are so out to get CUPW because they don't want their tax dollars to have to pay for expensive pension plan in the event it fails, yet are not concerned with the fact that they are alreadt paying to cover another expensive pension plan to ensure that it does not fail, I mean we wouldn't want people like Mike Duffy to have to worry about losing their pension after his years of honourable service, but an average guy who worked a regular job to support his family and make an honest living, who paid his taxes, some people here seem awfully quick to hang him from the highest tree.
And yes that last part is an assumption on my part, if all the people who are criticizing the CUPW for wanting to keep their plan are currently writing letters, going to rallies and using other means to protest these same plans that politicians have which we ARE paying for, I'll retract that statement.
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Okay, lets touch on a few points, I think we're arguing similar things just in different extremes.
First of all I consider the likelihood of Privatization of Canada Post somewhere on par with Canada planning a Moon landing. It could happen, but the odds are infinitesimal.
Further, even assuming that its in the conversation, Privatization of a National entity isnt like putting Postal Workers in a raft and cutting them loose, spinning off subsidiaries legally require all liabilities to be paid up and ergo the pension fund would have to be topped up. If they screwed it up from there then yes, that would be their problem.
Secondly, you're talking about the possibility of the current workers accepting the two-tiered system and then being outnumbered by newer workers on the new plan and having their old, grandfathered pension amended.
Again, this is highly unlikely, while its conceivable usually when these provisions are grandfathered in employees who arent part of it arent eligible to make changes to it. And further to that its also likely that Canada Post will be hiring fewer and fewer new employees so by the time the tipping point of power is reached it will likely affect almost no one.
Thirdly, Crown Corporation agreements are backed by the Government. I dont see where you get the idea that the taxpayers are not going to cover the shortfall of the pension. But for the moment, lets assume that your dream comes true and taxpayers are not on the hook for the unfunded portion:
Then Postal Workers, regardless of whether they accept the two-tiered system or not, are screwed. If that money isnt coming from the Government then it isnt coming from anywhere so CP wouldnt be able to cover it, it would likely lead to CP's insolvency then bankruptcy.
All while, what? The Government presumably idly watches on the sidelines twiddling their thumbs as they watch the ship slide quietly under the waves?
Then CUPW will have to change their acronym to the Canadian Union of Unemployed Postal Workers.
And finally, on my opinion on Defined Benefit Pension Plans and any supposed hypocrisy?
No hypocrisy on my part here. I dont care if you're a Postal Worker or the Prime Minister I believe that the Defined Benefit Pension model is inherently flawed and a huge drain on systemic resources and our economy and I dont believe anyone should get them.
Out of all of these pension funds in Canada both Federally and Provincially I think all but two of them have huge unfunded liabilities that consume vast budgetary resources.
As I indicated earlier, more and more people are starting to realize this fact and finally starting to do something about it.