[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

1. This is incorrect. The Government has entered into a contract with a group of workers to provide a Defined Benefit. By nature a defined benefit is....a benefit...that is defined. You get what was promised and the deal cannot be changed retro-actively.

When its with a company if theres no money there then theres a process, but this is the Government, they cant welch on the deal. That money will come from somewhere, it has to.

2. Again, correct and incorrect. The lack of any kind of failsafes or guarantees in regards to the Old Pension Plan arent omitted by ignorance or lack of foresight, they're omitted due to lack of need. That plan is going to get bailed out by taxpayers. Thats a thing thats going to happen. This isnt trying to 'screw' the Union or the employees, this is triage. Stem the bleeding, this far no farther.

3. Yeah...who is coming out ahead? Current Postal Workers. They're going to be forced to accept the two-tiered pension system because the secret on Government-backed and Guaranteed Defined Benefit Pensions is out. They're untenable and unsustainable. Current Postal Workers are going to get paid, they're going to get their cushy pension and they're going to be damned near unfireable and they're going to be given incentives (read: money) to accept, and in exchange they're going to sell out their brother future Postal Workers because: "Screw those guys I dont know so long as I get mine!"

4. Yeah, read that last sentence again. No one is doing any of this out of altruism.

The bolded part demonstrates a lack of consideration for the very possible scenario that Canada post becomes a private corporation.

As far as your claims that the funds will be paid out no matter what, frankly that is an assumption, you can argue this all you want, but there is simply no guarantee of that, if all defined benefit pensions were simply guaranteed then why would anyone ever care about any modifications? People would just assume that any changes would have no negative impact whatsoever, the key word there is assume, assumptions or best guesses leave room for error, which is why it is best to have an assurance. And you may be thinking "but..but..but...I already told you defined benefit plans can't be altered" this is not accurate, most defined benefit plans have legal language to allow for modifications or ammendments, these are there to protect plan members in the event unexpected inflation as well as deficits. The only catch is when the plan is in a collective agreement, the employees have a say in what changes are made.

There is absolutely no question about it. As I explained before:

A Defined Benefit is....a Benefit...that is Defined.

It is a Government promise, any argument that Postal Workers who retire and see an underfunded pension fund are going to be thrown out onto the street is ridiculous and disingenuous. Any and all shortfalls will be covered.

This is the Crux of the whole problem.

A retirement plan is typically: personal contributions + employer matching (if there is any) + growth over time = retirement savings.

The issue with DB plans is that you are guaranteed a sum based on established criteria (typically average salary of 'x' number of final years in perpetuity) whether that prior equation justifies it or can afford it or not. In a DB plan a third party has agreed to cough up any difference.

A Defined Benefit Pension Plan assumes a great number of things, but at the end of the day it is a Guarantee of retirement income based on established criteria.

For instance, lets take one we can all love: Old Age Security.

The criteria: Canadian Citizen with 'X' number of years of residency that reaches the age of 65 who does not exceed an annual income of $71,592-$116K.

The Benefit: ~$6500/year (<- it changes from year to year)

The contribution? .....

To the first bolded part is a little misleading, the government did not make a promise, a crown corporation did. If that corporation is privatized, it is no longer a government promise. It's not as if they passed a bill in the senate on this.

And just to further invalidate that statement, even if it was a promise, history has shown that governments have a tendency to break their promises when they are no longer feasible.

My response to the first quote already covers my position on the other portions of this quote.

1. That assertion is patently false so no, I do not agree.

2. The Union absolutely has its current member's interest as their top priority and at the moment the Union is well poised to come out of this fiasco looking like Unicorns pooping rainbows and bleeding printer toner.

As I indicated earlier, current postal workers are going to make out like bandits, just so long as they dont have too much of a conscience over their 30 pieces of silver.

My assertion is based on fact. As pointed out in my response to the first quote, so unless you can provide some sort of legal precedent for why an underfunded pension must be bailed out by a government even if they don't have the funds or support to do so I hope you will be able to see your opinion as an assumption and not a fact supported position.

I cant even specifically point out certain parts of this one.

Of course they feel it isnt their problem, the Government literally cannot not pay the agreed pensions.

Finally, if the Unions had any sense they'd take the deal that their current members are more or less perfectly happy with.

So....why dont they? Especially if they have their current members' interest at the forefront of their priorities?

Because right now Postal Workers are the weakest link and everyone knows it.

This is just the first Domino to fall. The CUPW will be taking heat from every other Union that represents Government workers with Defined Benefit plans to fight this tooth and nail and not set a precedent. If the CUPW caves to that pressure they will be doing so at pretty much exactly what Resolute has been saying, conflicts of union representation.

"We the CP brothers cant in good conscience screw our brothers in various other branches of Government work."

And those brothers will be collecting full salary and benefits while their CP brothers walk the picket line for peanuts. For the cause! Once more unto the breach brothers!

Like I alluded to earlier, the secret is out, these Defined Benefit Pension plans are killer and have to be eliminated and as I have been saying for years the best way to do it is to phase them out over time so nobody gets totally screwed.

The bolded portion is again strictly your opinion on the matter, my guess is you haven't spoken to the majority of CUPW members, so to speak on their behalf in order to make your argument doesn't add anything credible to support your position.

As far your opinion on defined benefit pension plans, if you are saying Canada post is run by the government, don't you feel it is a little bit hypocritical on their part to claim these plans are doomed to fail while all politicians get to keep their defined benefit pensions?

Edit: my last paragraph got me thinking how interesting it is that people in here are so out to get CUPW because they don't want their tax dollars to have to pay for expensive pension plan in the event it fails, yet are not concerned with the fact that they are alreadt paying to cover another expensive pension plan to ensure that it does not fail, I mean we wouldn't want people like Mike Duffy to have to worry about losing their pension after his years of honourable service, but an average guy who worked a regular job to support his family and make an honest living, who paid his taxes, some people here seem awfully quick to hang him from the highest tree.

And yes that last part is an assumption on my part, if all the people who are criticizing the CUPW for wanting to keep their plan are currently writing letters, going to rallies and using other means to protest these same plans that politicians have which we ARE paying for, I'll retract that statement.