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Thanks for the personal attack on a forum. You must be a respectable person in real life who is above anything and everything in this thread.
Has Bob Hartley been to the Red Mile? No, he's heard stories, many unsubstantiated. The red mile is not out of hand no matter how much you want to think it is. I've been there. I do more than post on the internet.
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So you'd disagree with female forumers like Firefly that:
a) It was a problem last time
b) It's likely to ramp up as things heat up like in 04, and we should keep an eye. Perhaps be proactive about trying to create a better atmosphere for women.
c) Females should be able to enjoy and feel safe on 17th.
Your basic premise if I could paraphrase:
a) The main problem is our reputation and what Vancouver people might say, not how it affects women
b) It's not a problem yet because I know girls who've seen it first hand two times in this early playoff round so "guaranteed" it's not an issue. Bob Hartley only hears things. I know what's going on here.
c) Being drunk can pretty much excuse most bad behaviour and it happens in all places, not just Calgary.
d) When bad behavior or harassment happens (likely due to drunkenness) women should just "deal with it".
e) If they can't "deal with it" they should stay away. This is a place for big boys and girls.
f) So, if you can't deal with it, chose to go anyway and a drunk guy harasses you, it's at least partially your fault.
If I've got it wrong - please, feel free to clarify.
Personal attack? Sure, yes it is.
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Originally Posted by FireFly
I cannot tell you how many times I have typed up a reply to this thread and then deleted it. I cannot tell you how many posts I have quoted in those posts. I have been keeping my eye on this thread and am not really surprised at how it is unfolding.
I was 23 in 2004 and lived on 14th Ave so was within walking distance of the red mile. I thoroughly enjoyed the atmosphere for the first round of playoffs. True fans who loved the team and the game coming together in celebration of what seemed like the impossible.
Every game after that became more and more uncomfortable.
It's hard to describe to a bunch of men just what it felt like down there. Not every woman will have the same experiences, not everyone responds the same way. We all have our own journeys to follow. I am not going to judge the girls who decided to flash for whatever reason. It's not really my concern if someone wants to show their tits.
However, imagine yourself surrounded by thousands of people chanting "Flames in six! Show your tits!" THOUSANDS. 1/3 of those people have their cameras ready to take your picture should you oblige. Some of them are yelling right in your face. Some of them are grabbing at your shirt. All of them are drunk. You and your girlfriend or boyfriend are surrounded by drunks, 90% of whom are yelling at you to take your shirt off for Kiprusoff.
Is that what it's like this year? I doubt it. By all accounts it's not that bad. It wasn't that bad for round one in 2004 either. But every round it got successively worse.
Someone here said that the chants were aimed at the girls who were flashing.... Really? Is that what you think? I'm pretty sure everyone has already seen their boobs and what is being chanted for is more boobs.
Words cannot possibly convey the growing discomfort and disgust I felt in 2004. At times I was scared for my personal safety. (People yelling in my face, calling me frigid or other names, making comments about my boobs because I wouldn't show them, the grabbing, etc.)
Again, my understanding is that it's not like this this year. That's fine. But things snowball. If it's okay to chant asking for women to flash now, what happens when you triple the population down there?
I could go on and on about this. People are trying to say it wasn't an issue in '04 and it shouldn't be an issue now but it absolutely was an issue in '04. People are trying to stop it from becoming an issue this year. I would love to head down to the Red Mile again but I just don't feel comfortable. That's sad. I'm a diehard Flames fan and I should be able to enjoy the festivities as much as anyone. However, because I have tits I'm only allowed if I'm okay with being sexually harassed and asked to show my tits to everyone and subsequently, have them placed on the internet without my permission.
And yes, it is sexual harassment. Chanting at women in the hopes they will show their tits is absolutely sexual harassment. Groping, smacking and grabbing when it's unwanted is absolutely sexual assault. Is it the same as rape? No. No one is claiming it is. However, it is all demeaning to women and it is all a crime.
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