[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by Wastedyouth

The problems here (Iraq) and in Egypt are not just ones of economics (oil). There are societal issues as well. 3 groups of people being forced to live under one leader by outside forces (Britain and US propping up Hussein). The Kurds hate the Shi'Ite and don't particularly care for the Sunni, or any Arabs for that matter. The Shi'ite hate the Sunni and vice versa, and have for centuries (long story).

A systemic lack of education has created generations upon generations of sheep, unfortunately.

In Egypt, with the advent of the internet and knowledge sharing, you are seeing unrest because the youth are in revolt and the older generations are suppressing them, brutally, if they have to.

Islam is trying to change, I personally believe. I believe the new generations coming (minus those tainted by Jihadism) are going to make Islam a better religion. Change is dirty and its bloody. And that is what we are seeing right now. It doesn't happen overnight, it takes generations.

Oil is just that, it is a combustible that is being thrown in the mix of an already fiery situation. The Kurds are honestly some of the most progressive Muslims I have encountered in my travels.

Originally Posted by Daradon

It's probably less about his feelings about Islam and more about his feelings about religion in general. Mahar is a chest beating atheist.

Affleck does come off badly, but I wasn't that impressed with Harris either. A lot about what he said (says) has the feeling of 'there's lies, damned lies, and there's statistics' to it. The numbers could be true, but it's not the whole story, and it's probably cherry picked some.

The biggest issue I believe is simply the wealth and education levels of the countries that are Islamic or largely Islamic. I'm not going to say that as it exists in the world now, there are outdated, prejudicaln and even violent ideas and movements associated with Islam. Not just associated, but intertwined with. And yes, more so than other religions.

However, is that because of the religion, or simply because a lot of people practicing it are poor and uneducated? It's the latter. Anyone remember the dark ages of Christianity? Just as violent. Just as harmful towards women. They just didn't have modern weapons.

As it stands now, there is obviously some truth to what Harris preaches. But, it's framing the whole discussion incorrectly. It would be better to look at the practitioners of Islam in first world countries and compare it to other religions that are big in those nations. Then I believe you would find the stats quite similar.

Originally Posted by Caged Great

It is possible to be critical of a person or group of people without denigrating them. In this case, both Maher, Harris and Affleck were wrong in each of their own ways. Affleck, saying generalizations of groups of people is wrong, while in most cases it is wrong, in some cases it is not. You have to listen to the exact argument that is being posited and what they are discussing before saying "ooh you're generalizing them, and that's bad". Maher and Harris were wrong for not fully thinking before speaking and not wording what the concepts that they were trying to convey correctly.

Islam does have problems and does need to have some criticism levied it's way. The Catholic church has it's problems and has had criticism levied it's way. Islams' main problem is it reticence with modernity. Most of society has entered the 21st century in it's acceptance of people and their own ways of doing things. The current catholic pope has recognized this shift in the manner in which most of western culture acts and reacts to these things and is shifting church policy accordingly. He's gone so far as to become accepting of gays, which is something I never thought would ever come from there.

Islam though in part seems stuck in the 13th century (mostly the extremists) in their behaviour and attitudes, especially towards women. Because of this lack of modernity, it should be allowed to be criticized without being slammed by people like Affleck. If norms are not challenged, then they cannot be changed and the only way to really challenge a set of norms is to levy criticism. That does not get aided by the disrespect shown by Maher/Harris by saying that it's the motherload of bad ideas and other stupid comments. Islam is no more or less inherently good or inherently bad than Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism. It is how the religion is practiced that is a problem. The tenants of Islam are actually extremely peaceful and intellectually based. However, a sizable portion of the followers are selective with how they view the tenants of their religion, much in the same manner that some Christians quote Leviticus to slam gays. This selective reading is the vehicle that lead to extremism in the first place.

In order for progress to be made in the Muslim culture, they need to modernize. In order to not come across as a jerk and shut down the receptiveness of the people you're trying to convince to change, you have to have well thought out ideas and suggestions to help facilitate change. By selectively criticizing the ideas and concepts that do not comport with modern society in a way most of the world find acceptable, you are not attacking the person for the entirety of their beliefs, just a few concepts. Saying that Islam is the motherload of bad ideas is directly attacking the person for believing in Islam, and that should not be acceptable.

Nuance is key to a discussion like this, and none of them were nuanced in their approach to the conversation.

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Islam does have a problem, but to claim its the core tenets of the religion is ignoring history. Politics is what drives the hardcore believers of today into jihadists. Both Sam Harris and Bill Maher claim to be intellectuals, but are guilty of oversimplification. Prior to 70 years ago, Muslim lands were apparently accepting of people of other faiths. Evidence of this is the Christians and Jews who had lived in places like Iraq and Syria for hundreds of years. Perceived injustice against Muslims in their lands is what drives the conflicts we see today. The fall of the Ottoman empire and the dividing of the spoils of war by the Colonial powers is a big part in the problem. A lack of education, hope, and opportunity is also a sizable part of the issue. Anyone who watched their countries decline over the last century would be angry.

These are all quality posts and this kind of thinking makes me proud to be a member of this forum.

It is so easy to suggest "the people who are doing these terrible things are Islamic, therefore Islam must be evil". There is so much more to it than that, as these posters have eloquently stated.

No society should be judged by the worst of it's members.