[Wastedyouth]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

It is possible to be critical of a person or group of people without denigrating them. In this case, both Maher, Harris and Affleck were wrong in each of their own ways. Affleck, saying generalizations of groups of people is wrong, while in most cases is wrong, in some cases it is not. You have to listen to the exact argument that is being posited and what they are discussing before saying "ooh you're generalizing them, and that's bad". Maher and Harris were wrong for not fully thinking before speaking and not wording what the concepts that they were trying to convey correctly.

Islam does have problems and does need to have some criticism levied it's way. The Catholic church has it's problems and has had criticism levied it's way. Islams' main problem is it reticence with modernity. Most of society has entered the 21st century in it's acceptance of people and their own ways of doing things. The current catholic pope has recognized this shift in the manner in which most of western culture acts and reacts to these things and is shifting church policy accordingly. He's gone so far as to become accepting of gays, which is something I never thought would ever come from there.

Islam though in part seems stuck in the 13th century (mostly the extremists) in their behaviour and attitudes, especially towards women. Because of this lack of modernity, it should be allowed to be criticized without being slammed by people like Affleck. If norms are not challenged, then they cannot be changed and the only way to really challenge a set of norms is to levy criticism. That does not get aided by the disrespect shown by Maher/Harris by saying that it's the motherload of bad ideas and other stupid comments. Islam is no more or less inherently good or inherently bad than Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism. It is how the religion is practiced that is a problem. The tenants of Islam are actually extremely peaceful and intellectually based. However, a sizable portion of the followers are selective with how they view the tenants of their religion, much how some Christians quote Leviticus to slam gays. This selective reading is the vehicle that lead to the extremism in the first place.

In order for progress to be made in the Muslim culture, they need to modernize. In order to not come across as a jerk and shut down the receptiveness of the people you're trying to convince to change, you have to have well thought out ideas and suggestions to help facilitate change. By selectively criticizing the ideas and concepts that do not comport with modern society is a way most of the world find acceptable, you are not attacking the person for the entirety of their beliefs, just a few concepts. Saying that Islam is the motherload of bad ideas is directly attacking the person for believing in Islam, and that should not be acceptable.

Nuance is key to a discussion like this, and none of them were nuanced in their approach to the conversation.

Much agree. So right.