[Chill Cosby]

I feel like it's old-fart's fault that I'm even in this discussion. Just for the record, I'm not defending religion or god, but one's simple right to a belief system and what might cause one to choose "god" over the much more logical combination of "science + things we've yet to discover".

Originally Posted by Thor

Oh this is absolutely common among apologists for "God" biblical or this less defined term of God which plays on the idea that religions have defined what really can't be defined, that is beyond our understanding..

Exactly correct. The concept of "God" was created to define what was not understood. Things in nature that humans had not yet understood or for something which there is/was no clear answer for.

Originally Posted by Thor

At its core, what we argue is there is no evidence for either, we are not trying to disprove these things, we are arguing there is no evidence for it, that believing in them is only in the realm of faith and science shows us natural explanations which is what I base my life on, evidence and reasoning whether a God concept or religious based dogma version exist.

I'm well aware of the atheist argument, and I take zero issue with it. My point is that atheism is a belief system, one which (if not understood) can be as laughably ridiculous as any religion. There are great atheists (Hitchens was one of my favourite essayists), just as there are great people who consider themselves religious. Those who don't understand the view of the other are an issue, and those who don't understand their own belief? Ridiculous. The whole line I took issue with was "God doesn't exist", because it's ignorant and unknowable.

I don't believe in God, but I'm comfortable enough to accept that there are things I don't fully understand and don't feel the need to solve them with the idea of a superior being. I also understand why people do, so I'm not ignorant enough to say "God doesn't exist" because A. It's as ridiculous as saying "God exists" (both statements completely unknowable), and B. I try not to be a terrible person. Your beliefs are your own, and belong within you. It is just as exhausting to hear someone preach about god as it is to hear someone preach about his lack of existence.

The problem with religion is when people feel the need to force their belief onto others. The same is true of atheism.

Originally Posted by Thor

I think a non-intervening, mysterious force, outside our realm of understanding God (deism) has more validity than a human based religious personal God which I think is rather easy to dismiss. This is NOT to say for that this is at all convincing, but rather another attempt by those who have a hard time imaging a universe without some outside intelligence seek out when they see the failings of organized personal Religions.

Agree 100%

Originally Posted by Thor

Well the vast majority of religion and believers follow an intervening God, so that is where most of the debate exists. Again because you define some ethereal outside of our understanding God as God, does not mean it has any more legitimacy to people who base their worldview on evidence and naturalism.

I don't define what we don't understand as God, but as I said, I was illustrating why I take issue with bringing up things like Odin or other "Gods", because they are all based on the same central concept of God, which is used to give knowing to the unknown. To reason with a religious person in that particular sense is pointless, so I'm not sure where the strength of that argument comes from.

Originally Posted by Thor

They are supernatural claims, which we have the problem with, I would find religion much less of a problem if we threw away dogmatic religious texts, and the baggage that they bring to our world, but the vast majority believe and live their lives by these God's being very much real, intervening beings that judge, give us rules&laws and cause a lot of harm in this world when it comes to following this.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Thor

I'm a bit confused by what you mean here, Islam and God are Abrahamic religons and share the same God, even Jesus is a prophet to Islam, they just disagree on key things, as with the Jews who see Jesus as a man. I dismiss the Abrahamic God outright, its an intervening God.

As pointed out by March, it was in reference to Duffman's post which showed a pretty real lack of basic religious understanding. If you don't know about what it is you don't believe, how can you really believe anything at all?

Here's my thing, whether you're religious or atheist, I firmly believe that you should be sure of your own beliefs, know what it is you don't believe and why you don't believe it, while following the general rule of respecting others.

I don't believe in god, and I don't believe there isn't a god. I simply don't live my life according to any higher power. Whether there is one or there isn't one is irrelevant to me. What is relevant to me is that religion is as harmful on a global scale as it is helpful on an individual scale. The amount of bad that comes from it will never outweigh the good. A lot of that comes from the need to be "right", the need to turn an unknown into "fact", for their to be "one truth". If you're going godless, at least have a mind not to be part of the problem.