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Originally Posted by pylon
Photon, I normally agree with you, and what you have to say, but you keep saying that.
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Because it isn't. You keep framing the issue to be about you, when it isn't.
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Originally Posted by pylon
By saying that, you are saying that my rights and reputation should be affected by a stereotype cast on all men, because of a minority of pigs. It is not about me, it is about everyone.
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But your rights and reputation aren't being effected, because it's not about you. You're making it about yourself but it's about how women are treated in our society and how they're impacted.
As I've also kept saying, it's not a question of your rights being affected. Of course they are being affected, that's what justifiable discrimination means.
But it's not about you, it's justifiable because the impact to your rights, your dignity, is minimal (as there are many other gyms), and justifiable because of the impact on the actual people that are being harmed. Another factor in determining if it's justified is if the harm the discrimination is meant to mitigate is real, and it is. If there was real equality in society, women only gyms would not be justifiable and wouldn't be allowed (though the whole question wouldn't even come up).
It's not a stereotype cast on all men, it's acknowledging the reality and dealing with reality vs. an idealized society that doesn't exist. No one is stereotyping you, because it's not about you, it's about the harm women experience and avoiding it.
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Originally Posted by pylon
In a weird way, my argument argues more for equality, than a lot of other posts in this thread.
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At the expense of women. I'll say it again, in a society where gender equality truly existed or was even close to existing, you would be completely right. But you're into a kind of nirvana fallacy.
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Originally Posted by pylon
Equality means equal for everyone, that is what I am arguing for. However having men's or women's only businesses is anything but equality.
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But things aren't equal, and you can't just say "ok everyone's equal" and expect society to overcome centuries or millennia of inequality. The problems are systemic and will self perpetuate regardless of what the laws say. Either we wait further centuries for the social structures to incorporate blacks and women naturally, or we take more progressive action to make it happen sooner despite the systems and individuals digging in their heels. One has a lower human suffering cost than the other.
The right way to frame something like women's gyms is not the gym itself, but to ask why such a thing exists in the first place.
It's a symptom, and treating the symptoms is silly. If you want equality, instead treat the problem to bring about equality, not the symptom of inequality. Which is done by educating and changing how society treats women.