Just a few things:
First the documentary Video:
Every country has issues with immigration. Is Israel dealing with their issues very well? Clearly not. They received a wave of refugees from Sudan simply because those refugees could walk to Israel, and all other countries had closed their boarders to them. To prevent even more mass immigration Israel closed that boarder.
Closer to home, both the US & Canada are working out their issues. The US is struggling with mass illegal immigration from Mexico with US citizen protests, "America for Americans", arguments in congress, turning away busloads of children, and building a fence. Canada is making it harder for immigrants by revamping the Temporary Foreign Workers program and wanting to deny some health care to refugees (I think the Supreme Court has overturned that?). Let's not forget the turn to the right in many European countries regarding Muslim immigration.
I also notice that no one mentioned the large counter protest (pro-immigration) in the video. Even the filmmakers gave it short shrift (documentary filmmakers with an agenda, surprise).
It does not excuse Israel or the Israeli Government. But let's be honest, every society has it's xenophobic undertones and hardliners.
Back to the thread topic:
The munitions Israel uses and the tactic or strategy of how they warn targets, those are policies and are on the table. I do not know enough about munitions, but I think that explosives that spread other harmful things (flechettes, ball bearings, nails, etc.) are really bad and should not be used.
Israel does warn targets of impending attack - how long they should wait from warning to attack is debatable - but warn they do.
To post that the Israeli Military purposefully goes out of its way to targets civilians, purposefully seeks to kill children for effect - that is the 21st century equivalent of the ancient blood-libel that Jews need Christian Children's blood for Passover Matzoh. This is a dehumanizing and de-legitimizing accusation and can easily lead to the Antisemitism charge (ASC).
The Antisemitism charge has been made in this thread, a far off accusation in my opinion. There have been statements that can easily lead to the ASC, but are closer to heated rhetoric - using the term "Genocide"; implying the Jews who are Pro-Israel are uncivilized; Israelis are disgusting.
The same, I feel, for the Islamophobia charge for a number of other posts - Islam/Arabs are uncivilized; all Palestinians/Arabs want to be martyrs.
I like to believe that most Israelis & Palestinians would like to live & let live and that extremists are just that. I also like to give the benefit of the doubt and believe that when posters write "all" or "many" or don't quantify with "some" or "a few" that they are not maliciously painting a whole race/religion/nation with a single brush. Rather they are just trying to make heated points in a heated argument.
Of note, I would also like to point out the tactic of negating the ASC or Islamophobia charge. A poster writes a heated post and dares the opposition to call him/her an Anti-Semite or the charge is brushed off as the defacto reply from the pro-Israeli side because they refuse to accept your "logical, rational" point. The same can go the other way, and the charge is not always wrong.
Let's not forget that many posters (myself included) have a bias/agenda in this thread, as do most of the writers and filmmakers that are used as proofs. We may not be getting the full accurate story for anything - whether by government omission, reporter bias, news clip omission, out right repression. Israel dishes most of its information through government spokespeople (I do not think they allow imbedded reporters in their military units). By the same token most reporters in Gaza rely on "stringers", locals who know the language and layout, and often those stringers have their own agenda (they have no interest in showing reporters tunnels, launchers, or depots - though some reporters do witness these. They do have an interest in showing carnage and the reporters/broadcasters have an interest in showing it).
A couple of partisan points:
- Israel committing "genocide' or "ethnic cleansing" - This charge is just malicious.
In order to be true we all know the death toll would have to be at least 100x higher and Israeli-Arabs would have to all be deported (Yes, an Avi Libigdor plan. For reference on making deals with the devil please see Abbas/Hamas unity government). Abbas, on the other hand, has insisted that there will be no Jews in a Palestinian State.
- Israel may be using nasty tactics (Any information supplied by an NGO or stringer I personally take with a large grain of salt. I believe they have an agenda - same as others on this board who likely take IDF briefings with a large grain of salt), let's not forget that Hamas fighters do not wear uniforms - is it possible that a 30 year old casualty is identified as a civilian by hamas & as a soldier by Israel? And that Hamas has been found (I believe inadvertently) to hide munitions in mosques & schools (the UNRWA found rockets in their school and returned them to Hamas.)
- Just an aside - Flash Walken - did you know that both Noam Chomsky & Norman Finkelstein both admonished the BDS movement as ineffectual and dishonest? I know they would both find this war reprehensible and Israel's fault, but I thought it was an interesting note.
Lastly, Arya Stark - you're good. Do I detect a bit of a conspiracy theorist there? I may be wrong, but I think a few of your posts referred to articles espousing the "Israel kidnapped the kids to precipitate war" theory, and, of course, no Israel thread is complete without a reference to the USS Liberty conspiracy (I sat through that BBC Documentary too). Will we see the "Mossad is responsible for 9/11" or "Kissinger kept the Vietnam War going to provide Israel cover in 1973" theories soon?
By some of this logic, why doesn't Israel let a couple rockets through the dome to Tel-Aviv? Wouldn't some civilian Israeli deaths in Ashdod or the lower-class immigrant neighbourhoods just bolster Israel in world opinion/approval and "allow" Israel to deal with Gaza far more harshly?
I am likely done with this thread as I have no interest in the many personal back and forth accusatory posts. It is giving me heartburn.
I kindly ask the moderators to keep an eye on it (it’s a dirty job, but….) watch out for antisemitism, Islamophobia, nasty accusations, & odd theories.
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