Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
Unless you can have everyone else touch it and agree with you about its nature, then it isn't tangible by definition. It's still a feeling; an especially strong one, but a feeling regardless.
Belief is holding a proposition to be true (that's the definition I'm using), so yes everything is based on beliefs (no extremes necessary). We operate day to day based entirely on our beliefs (based on all the propositions we hold to be true). Some beliefs are well substantiated (I believe gravity will hold me to the earth and will do it again tomorrow), some not so much, some are irrational and some demonstrably false.
And yes just because someone makes a good argument doesn't make it true. Just because someone feels something doesn't make it true. And that's what we're really discussing here, is how to determine if a belief is in fact true.
I used to believe I was conscious of it. I was also conscious of the tangible presence of both God and Satan, including physical manifestations of them. I'm not saying it doesn't exist because I'm not conscious of it, I'm saying it doesn't exist because there's no evidence it exists and that being aware of it is something that is explained by neuroscience, even to the point of being able to induce it externally on a test subject.
People all over the world report the same, or being conscious of their (mutually exclusive) god or gods, or ancestors, or what have you.
Or alien presences, some people channel ancient aliens. Or ghosts, people speak with the dead.
Their experiences are just as strong as yours, so must be equally valid as yours (which means God and Satan, Allah and Vishnu, hundreds of different alien species all contacting humans, ghosts, etc all exist). Either that or you have to admit that what you are conscious of is just as possibly not real as all those others; why would you happen to have the truth when most others do not?
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Well everybody has the potential to look at it, listen to it, feel it, etc. There is some training and understanding involved but that doesn't exclude anyone.
Belief, well lets start at the common ground that you and I are both alive, breathing human beings. Lets not doubt our own being. I operate on the fact that I am breathing, no belief needed. An axiom if you will.
I can't speak for the experiences or the motives of others. I know that I was looking for peace and found more. To be honest a lot of other paths such as looking for aliens, believing in ghosts, contacting the dead, miracles, a lot of religious dogmatism, psychedelic drugs, are all just dead ends with no real satisfaction. One of the things is, that a lot of people in this world are looking for a savior and so get sidetracked, when the only savior is myself or yourself.
Sorry for the sermon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.
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Going back to this quote, I agree it reads like self serving nonsense made up to indoctrinate the masses and gain power. My own understanding was crucial before I entered this path and that understanding is still needed. As a friend farther along at the time told me, you need to use a certain amount of intelligence to follow this path.
When Kabir speaks about the arrogance of reason, he's talking about the experience itself. You can't get there by reason and you can't experience it by reason, it's a gift.