[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Itse

When everybody gets a basic income, there's a lot less need to keep track of various other benefits, so the savings in bureaucracy are supposedly pretty big.

I kinda disagree with this, you'd still need exception based social programs. You'd still need a form of unemployment for people to top up between the guaranteed minimum and whatever they were earning in a regular job if they lose that job. I would expect that people on long term disability or welfare with cause would be getting more and you'd need to keep the bureaucracy to manage that. Plus you'd need to open a whole new department to run the minimum wage budget, distribution and analysis and knowing federal government and provincial governments love of bureaucracy it would have 2000 people running it. It doesn't get rid of health care and other things. Would there be sick days involved with this that you'd have to report on? How about investigating abuses, dogs have gotten UI checks because some enterprising person has managed to enroll their mutt.

Originally Posted by Itse

I haven't looked into the Canadian proposal, but the idea has also been getting some traction here in Finland, and I generally support the idea. I don't know how it works, but when even the right-wing pundits (the ones that know their math at least) are saying that, it's possible, I trust them.

I'd like to change my user name here to devils advocate 2. I've looked at the basic math and I don't know how it works. At least with the social programs like pension and UI and welfare, not every person is on it, there's inherent savings to that. If you talked about a minimum income guarantee that's a short term solution that covers long term disability, unemployment and pension that could be run out of one department then fine. If you make less then $7800.00 per year lets say, the government will top you up until you surpass that amount and then it goes away, I would see the merits of it. But giving everyone a starting point of $7800.00 for example doesn't make much sense to me.

Originally Posted by Itse

For me the biggest issue is, is it going to be a one-size fits no-one system? .

In the most glorious state run sense it would have to be, but I don't see it being that way. Lets be frank if I started with $7800.00, and then whatever I paid was added on top I would be all over that, however in order to support that type of program my tax rate would probably have to go up significantly on my personal non governmental salary and I would probably end up in the same earning bracket as I am now, or at worst losing more money to taxation to support a lets say $23 million (70%) of the population (30% lets say ineligible due to age)

Originally Posted by Itse

Everybody needs money, but many people need other things. How do we guarantee that the necessary and services programs are still kept, that the ones that are cut are really the unnecessary ones? The best answer I've heard for that is: that's really how it is anyway.

That's the problem, there would still have to be a social net. On unemployment lets say that I make $40,000 all in. I lost my job, the minimum income amount would probably not be sufficient, I'd still need some form of temporary unemployment.

Or I'm an oil field worker that make $80,000 and I get my legs crushed and have to go on log term disability I'd still need that top up.

Or I have a handicapped child with large costs, the maximum minimum would still need to be topped up.

You'd still need a social program in place to take care of that.

Originally Posted by Itse

And I guess I can accept that, generally speaking. But if this ever comes down to an actual vote or something, I'd want some specifics on that part.

That's the thing, I don't believe that its a do-able thing that makes sense, I would need to see how it would be implemented and how the so called savings in terms of different social programs and things like law enforcement would be executed and budgeted.

But a lot of people get seduced by the idea that the governments going to give me $7800.00 without me doing anything, hell yeah sign me up for that. I would be extremely skeptical of a party that ran with that as the primary plank.