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Originally Posted by 19Yzerman19
I'm not even sure what "momentum in the discussion" actually means. I don't want to associate with people who share this viewpoint, so it really doesn't matter to me if they think I'm an ####### for pointing out their massive shortcomings as human beings. I don't, personally, have the patience in this context to facilitate the re-education of people who have the potential openmindedness to be re-educated; if I hear this kind of bigotry in person I need to go into another room or lose my cool. So it's a moot point. I'm not emotionally equipped to take that tack here.
I appreciate the viewpoint (Patrick Burke swears by it) that people need to be given a chance to see things from a different perspective than perhaps the one they were originally taught and have grown comfortable with. There's room for that. But there's also the problem that the person on the other side of it hears that measured, patient approach and intuitively responds with the assumption that, "oh, this person is trying to bring me around to their way of thinking which is different from my way of thinking. Maybe I'll consider their way of looking at things". That sounds good, but it misrepresents the landscape of the discussion. The reality is, the Patrick Burkes of the world are attempting to get you to abandon your downright awful, abhorrent view of the world. It's not a matter of differing, nuanced moral perspectives; the homophobic perspective is just... evil.
Those who are able and willing to patiently explain and illustrate why bigots are wrong, and thereby perhaps rescue from ignorance the small proportion of the bigot population who are simply wrongheaded and can be shown their error, are all well and good. But there needs to be a constant and firm reminder that there's a clear right and wrong here. Personally, I do not believe this battle is ultimately won when the socially enlightened convince the backwards and ignorant; it's won when through demographics the backwards and ignorant gradually go extinct. To that end, making it absolutely clear to everyone from day one that bigoted viewpoints are utterly unacceptable, wrong, and will result in you being shunned and looked down upon will limit the recruitment of new bigots and hasten the departure of the rapidly aging ones (who will hopefully be shamed into silence wherever possible).
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Bigotry is learned. My guess is it is passed most commonly from parent to child. Something has to break that chain. Ultra-shame will be viewed as propaganda, and the people that have to hear the message simply stop listening, or if they can, vilify the messengers. Pointman is not going to start listening because now he is trying to defend his pride in his country as well. I don't think the extreme shame angle is going to be as effective as civil dialog. While that may have worked with different flavors of racism, I can't see it working with homophobia. That is because many homophobes view homosexuality as a life choice, not something you are born with. Until they understand that key point, homophobes will not equate their views with other types of prejudice. Ultra-shame is not going to get that through their skulls IMO.
Fighting intolerance with equal intolerance seems counter productive to me. Look how photon is going through the discussion. Much less hostile, and much less room for Pointman to maneuver. I would be interested in Pointman providing a real reply to his questions, instead of dodging.