Quote:
Originally Posted by _Q_
That's it though. Horak is already a third liner who might one day become a second liner. Poirier and Klimchuk have both been projected to be third liners with 2nd liner as their ceilings. To me it makes no sense to put those two ahead of Horak when he has accomplished already what the other two some day hope to be.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Q_
Went with Horak again simply because I think he's already at where Klimchuk/Poirier project to be.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius
I'm speechless... There's nothing more I can do... Please re-read post #54 as slowly and carefully as you can. Pay special attention to the quoted comment, as that is critical to the overall message flow.
Take note of words like 'already' and 'now'...don't kid yourself into thinking those are just meaningless throw-ins... Those words are as important as any others.
If its still a mystery to you why I reference Horak as he is now as opposed to his ceiling, I simply can't help you.
(HINT : it was _Q_ , the original post that I quoted, that actually made the comparison, not me...I hope that helps)
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Fair enough. Q believes Horak is already a 3rd liner with 2nd line upside. You believe Horak is a borderline NHLer at this exact moment.
I tend to believe Hartley could easily have played Horak all year as a 3rd/2nd liner but instead went with a veteran laden lineup to try and make the playoffs. Because he did you see Horak as a borderline NHLer. Under different marching orders Horak could easily have been seen as a proven NHLer last season. Hartley had different marching orders when Iginla/Bouwmeester were traded and Horak was an NHL regular at that point and a top 9 forward.
Using the same logic you are employing, Baertschi was a borderline NHLer last season. And yes the Flames are hoping Klimchuk and Poirier end up better than borderline NHLers, better than Baertschi was last season. But WTF is the point of saying that the Flames hope that Klimchuk and Poirier end up better than Baertschi was last season? Does that clarify anything?
We're trying to debate where Baertschi, Klimchuk, Poirier and Horak stand against each other long term. Not where Baertschi and Horak found themselves when the Flames were trying their one last push for the playoffs lead by Iginla and friends.
I'm ready to argue that Horak isn't a borderline NHLer in the post-Iginla era. He isn't a borderline NHLer now. He's a top 9 forward for the Flames barring a disastrous camp this fall. And yes, the Flames are hoping that Klimchuk and Poirier will end up as top 9 forwards in the NHL as well. They are probably hoping they will end up as a top 6 forwards. However Horak is more proven, I'm sure we can agree on that. When determining whether Horak is a better prospect than Klimchuk or Poirier you have to decide what you think their upsides are and how likely you think they are to achieve that. Given that Horak is already somewhat NHL proven his likelihood of achieving his upside is higher than Poirier and Klimchuk who have yet to play a pro game. If a fan (like Q) isn't sold that Poirier and Klimchuk are surefire 2nd liners then it is perfectly reasonable to put Horak ahead of them.
I just still have a problem with the term "borderline NHLer" in regards to Horak. Borderline NHLer to me is a 13th/14th/15th forward. I'd be willing to bet money that Horak will be a top 9 NHLer with the Flames next season.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce
And lo and behold, if you check the TOI stats for the Flames guess where Horak sits amongst players who played at least 20 games last year? That's right, top 9 amongst forwards at 14:31 per game. Around twice as much as guys like Jackman, Begin and McGrattan.
So I guess your argument that he is a borderline NHLer rests upon the fact he was demoted at one point when the Flames were desperate to make one last playoff run with Iginla.