Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community - View Single Post - Difference between rebuild and business as usual

Calgary4LIfe · 02-13-2013, 11:22 PM

How do you build a championship team?

Show me one single Stanley Cup Winner since the lockout that didn't do the following 4 things well:

1) Drafting
2) Development
3) Good trades
4) Good free agent signings

Miss out on a single point, and you miss out on the cup.

Nevermind you need some luck. As much as I hate saying it, Vancouver put together a Stanley Cup calibre team, but either were 'unlucky', or didn't have enough character, or whatever else you want to say.

Oilers I think kind of did their rebuild a bit incorrectly (which isn't to say that it won't work in the long term - much like Chicago's).

I am not sure how good their scouting is, or their development program is, but they haven't seemed to have drafted much help outside their 'fab 4' now. Maybe I am not aware of what else is coming through the pipe, or I am underrating guys like Hartikainen and Lander. They also were 'unlucky' enough to do it when the overall #1 picks were probably a step below in that time span (which is arguable, I know, for at least a couple more years minimum until players show further development). However, looking back at other #1 overall picks, it is hard to make a case for Edmonton's 1st overalls being better players than guys like Stamkos and Tavares.

I think the most important thing an organization needs is proper scouting and development.

Anyone know how big the Flames' scouting staff is? Who they are? How much it has grown in the last 4 years (starting under Darryl's watch)?

What about the Flames' development program personnel? How big is that area in the organization, compared to what it was 5 and 10 years ago?

Too many posters seem to be stuck in the 'Flames suck at scouting and development' area. Sure, NOTHING will be proven until more prospects come through the system, for sure. However, they are starting to trickle through now. Next season I would think the Heat move up a peg in talent. It takes a while for players to finish off their junior careers and start making an impact on the Heat, and then get a leg up on the Flames.

Without looking at all the other teams in the NHL that have been getting top 10 picks over the years (NYI, Florida, CBJ, etc) that have not experienced success later on, and even teams like Chicago during their 1st or 2nd rebuild (depending on how you see it, Toews+Kane could be argued as their 3rd consecutive rebuild, but at least 2nd), I would bet that the Flames' have a much bigger scouting staff now.

To build a franchise properly, you don't need to tear it down. You don't need to trade all your vets for prospects and futures. This does give a team a better chance at finding franchise players, but it doesn't equate to building a championship calibre team. You do so by having a strong scouting and development program. It also helps to bring players in surrounded by good, hard-working vets that lead the way. Even Crosby had Guerin, and he credited Guerin a lot to the Pens' success.

In my opinion (which counts for absolutely nothing, other than just food for thought) the Flames are on step 3 of their rebuild. Yep, laugh all you want.

This is what I see the Flames having accomplished in their rebuild:

1) Setup their development program. The Abbotsford Heat are essentially 'controlled' by them. If Gaudreau comes to the Heat, and Ward thinks the best chance for the Heat to win is benching Gaudreau, Flames can just call Ward up and tell him to put him on the top line. Many teams don't get this ability to dictate how much and in what circumstances their prospects play. They also have development staff that keep tabs on players' progressions - workout regimes, skating clinics, feedback for players AND their respective coaches, etc. How long have they been doing this? How has it been changing over the years? They have been adding to it.

2) Scouting. Correct me if I am wrong, but how many scouts were on the payroll when Darryl Sutter took over as GM? I believe the Flames had 1 full-time scout (Todd) and 2 part-time (I THINK this was the case - someone in these forums would know for sure). Sutter convinced the owners that they need to spend more there (as well as creating the Heat). Feaster has taken that mantra and expanded it. How many scouts do the Flames have now? I don't know for sure, but I believe I have heard somewhere last season they had 11.

3) This is the step they are on NOW. Stopped the 'bleeding' of futures for 'win now'. Contrary to what people keep insinuating that the Flames are in a 'win now' mentality, that is not exactly the case. It isn't just black and white. Flames are in a 'competitive now', not 'win now'. "Win now" means you are trading futures to load up for a run. How many years have the Flames not done this for? They are also changing the guard. There was a HUGE gap between the effective 'core' of this team, and.. well.. there was nothing much else really. Now look at the team. Sure, the Flames' top line still consists of 3 guys over 30, with a goalie that is over 30. However, that used to practically be the entire 3 top lines!

There is a fundamental shift in how the Flames are going about their 'business as usual'. What is business as usual? Does "business as usual" mutually exclusive to rebuilding? Mutually exclusive to loading up for a cup run? Business as usual is what every team does - try to improve. Flames are 'fixing' their franchise on the ground floor - their foundations. In every respectable organization, you start with your front office. Why do people think that CBJ is about to embark on a better rebuild than the ones that they have had in the past? Because John Davidson is there to make sure it is done correctly. By shrewd drafting and development, and by building a good hockey ops department. EXACTLY what the Flames have been working on.

Changes are coming - they are just not as fast as a lot of people want to see. People have become fixated on seeing Iginla and Kipper on the team, and yelling: "We want change!". Not everyone has noticed that change has been occurring, and more change is coming. Unless the Flames go on a serious run soon (and though I am optimistic personally on the Flames - maybe I am too much of a 'fan', or perhaps I just WANT to believe in this team too much - but even I have my doubts this will happen) we are seeing Iginla's last 'x' games as a member of the Flames.

Think of it this way:

Many of you are pointing at the owners 'not caring' about winning, as long as they put butts in the seats (though, if they didn't care, why the heck would they be spending to the cap, willing to bury players in the AHL constantly, willing to buy Ramo out of his team, willing to expand the hockey ops department drastically, etc, if they just cared about money?). Many posters feel that by trading away Iginla, the owners would be scared that they would not sell enough tickets. What would be a bigger fear than that? Having Iginla leave for nothing. There is NO WAY that Iginla will remain a Flame past the trade deadline without a new contract, and there is only one reason why there isn't one yet - both sides are taking a 'wait and see' approach on how this team does.

I hope the Flames continue to expand their hockey ops department a bit. Hire a few more amateur as well as professional scouts. I hope they strive for continual improvement in that area. Is it 'working'? Well, it SEEMS to be getting better. Proof will be in the pudding, but this area (to me) is the biggest beacon of hope in this franchise.

02-13-2013, 11:22 PM	#141
Calgary4LIfe Franchise Player Join Date: Jun 2010 Exp:	How do you build a championship team? Show me one single Stanley Cup Winner since the lockout that didn't do the following 4 things well: 1) Drafting 2) Development 3) Good trades 4) Good free agent signings Miss out on a single point, and you miss out on the cup. Nevermind you need some luck. As much as I hate saying it, Vancouver put together a Stanley Cup calibre team, but either were 'unlucky', or didn't have enough character, or whatever else you want to say. Oilers I think kind of did their rebuild a bit incorrectly (which isn't to say that it won't work in the long term - much like Chicago's). I am not sure how good their scouting is, or their development program is, but they haven't seemed to have drafted much help outside their 'fab 4' now. Maybe I am not aware of what else is coming through the pipe, or I am underrating guys like Hartikainen and Lander. They also were 'unlucky' enough to do it when the overall #1 picks were probably a step below in that time span (which is arguable, I know, for at least a couple more years minimum until players show further development). However, looking back at other #1 overall picks, it is hard to make a case for Edmonton's 1st overalls being better players than guys like Stamkos and Tavares. I think the most important thing an organization needs is proper scouting and development. Anyone know how big the Flames' scouting staff is? Who they are? How much it has grown in the last 4 years (starting under Darryl's watch)? What about the Flames' development program personnel? How big is that area in the organization, compared to what it was 5 and 10 years ago? Too many posters seem to be stuck in the 'Flames suck at scouting and development' area. Sure, NOTHING will be proven until more prospects come through the system, for sure. However, they are starting to trickle through now. Next season I would think the Heat move up a peg in talent. It takes a while for players to finish off their junior careers and start making an impact on the Heat, and then get a leg up on the Flames. Without looking at all the other teams in the NHL that have been getting top 10 picks over the years (NYI, Florida, CBJ, etc) that have not experienced success later on, and even teams like Chicago during their 1st or 2nd rebuild (depending on how you see it, Toews+Kane could be argued as their 3rd consecutive rebuild, but at least 2nd), I would bet that the Flames' have a much bigger scouting staff now. To build a franchise properly, you don't need to tear it down. You don't need to trade all your vets for prospects and futures. This does give a team a better chance at finding franchise players, but it doesn't equate to building a championship calibre team. You do so by having a strong scouting and development program. It also helps to bring players in surrounded by good, hard-working vets that lead the way. Even Crosby had Guerin, and he credited Guerin a lot to the Pens' success. In my opinion (which counts for absolutely nothing, other than just food for thought) the Flames are on step 3 of their rebuild. Yep, laugh all you want. This is what I see the Flames having accomplished in their rebuild: 1) Setup their development program. The Abbotsford Heat are essentially 'controlled' by them. If Gaudreau comes to the Heat, and Ward thinks the best chance for the Heat to win is benching Gaudreau, Flames can just call Ward up and tell him to put him on the top line. Many teams don't get this ability to dictate how much and in what circumstances their prospects play. They also have development staff that keep tabs on players' progressions - workout regimes, skating clinics, feedback for players AND their respective coaches, etc. How long have they been doing this? How has it been changing over the years? They have been adding to it. 2) Scouting. Correct me if I am wrong, but how many scouts were on the payroll when Darryl Sutter took over as GM? I believe the Flames had 1 full-time scout (Todd) and 2 part-time (I THINK this was the case - someone in these forums would know for sure). Sutter convinced the owners that they need to spend more there (as well as creating the Heat). Feaster has taken that mantra and expanded it. How many scouts do the Flames have now? I don't know for sure, but I believe I have heard somewhere last season they had 11. 3) This is the step they are on NOW. Stopped the 'bleeding' of futures for 'win now'. Contrary to what people keep insinuating that the Flames are in a 'win now' mentality, that is not exactly the case. It isn't just black and white. Flames are in a 'competitive now', not 'win now'. "Win now" means you are trading futures to load up for a run. How many years have the Flames not done this for? They are also changing the guard. There was a HUGE gap between the effective 'core' of this team, and.. well.. there was nothing much else really. Now look at the team. Sure, the Flames' top line still consists of 3 guys over 30, with a goalie that is over 30. However, that used to practically be the entire 3 top lines! There is a fundamental shift in how the Flames are going about their 'business as usual'. What is business as usual? Does "business as usual" mutually exclusive to rebuilding? Mutually exclusive to loading up for a cup run? Business as usual is what every team does - try to improve. Flames are 'fixing' their franchise on the ground floor - their foundations. In every respectable organization, you start with your front office. Why do people think that CBJ is about to embark on a better rebuild than the ones that they have had in the past? Because John Davidson is there to make sure it is done correctly. By shrewd drafting and development, and by building a good hockey ops department. EXACTLY what the Flames have been working on. Changes are coming - they are just not as fast as a lot of people want to see. People have become fixated on seeing Iginla and Kipper on the team, and yelling: "We want change!". Not everyone has noticed that change has been occurring, and more change is coming. Unless the Flames go on a serious run soon (and though I am optimistic personally on the Flames - maybe I am too much of a 'fan', or perhaps I just WANT to believe in this team too much - but even I have my doubts this will happen) we are seeing Iginla's last 'x' games as a member of the Flames. Think of it this way: Many of you are pointing at the owners 'not caring' about winning, as long as they put butts in the seats (though, if they didn't care, why the heck would they be spending to the cap, willing to bury players in the AHL constantly, willing to buy Ramo out of his team, willing to expand the hockey ops department drastically, etc, if they just cared about money?). Many posters feel that by trading away Iginla, the owners would be scared that they would not sell enough tickets. What would be a bigger fear than that? Having Iginla leave for nothing. There is NO WAY that Iginla will remain a Flame past the trade deadline without a new contract, and there is only one reason why there isn't one yet - both sides are taking a 'wait and see' approach on how this team does. I hope the Flames continue to expand their hockey ops department a bit. Hire a few more amateur as well as professional scouts. I hope they strive for continual improvement in that area. Is it 'working'? Well, it SEEMS to be getting better. Proof will be in the pudding, but this area (to me) is the biggest beacon of hope in this franchise.