So much about the discussion in this thread saddens me. There isn't a single position anyone has brought forward from either end that sounds fair and right. So much anger all around.
That's what I'm afraid the real end of this civilization is going to be from. People can't argue calmly, no one wants to hear a point of view from the other side without mocking it, and if a discussion really happens, it degenerates into a place where only one point of view is welcome.
There is a lot of Hate being directed at people being accused of Hate. The irony would be funny, if it wasn't so sad.
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