[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This IS my "real world". What on earth is that supposed to mean, anyways? Are you suggesting that I am somehow deluded because I have friends and family members who sincerely believe that they communicate with God?

I'm saying the fact that you entertain their crazy talk as anything other than crazy talk is strange. I guess I'm lucky that my friends and relatives are sane for the most part. I would have a very difficult time talking to somebody about their discussions with god and demons.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Have you ever witnessed an "exorcism" or encountered a "demonic" manifestation first hand? We recognize these as symptoms of schizophrenia, but in a context that subscribes to spiritual forces, it is very difficult not to be impressed by the sense that these forces are real. Again, people who believe in such things are not necessarily—or even predominantly—"crazy". I suspect that the majority of people are highly impressionable, and are most frequently prone to group think and generalizations. Most people are not captivated by complex or technical explanations for anything, which is why "the devil made me do it" is still a much more satisfying and palatable answer than "faulty interpretation of the misfiring of dopaminergic neurons."

Yes, I know these people believe these forces are real. That's what makes them mentally deficient. I suppose it's impressive in the same way the shoe-throwing crazies on Jerry Springer are entertaining to watch, but that's about where my fascination ends.

So if I don't believe in encounters with demons, does that mean I'm less impressionable and less prone to group think and generalizations? Isn't that a better way to be? I'll answer that for you...yes, it is.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Do you think the same thing about people who talk to their pets or their car? We are conditioned to anthropomorphize the natural world, and in a spiritually saturated culture such encounters with spiritual phenomena are pretty common. This does not make someone crazy. Your response is actually quite interesting, because it appears quite similar to an argument from incredulity: You can't imagine the power and effect of religious experience, therefore all such experience must be a product of insanity. Again, this is a highly arrogant claim that suggests that you are somehow immune to the sorts of social pressures and intuitive habits that produce these effects.

That's a pitiful analogy. First of all, pets are real so talking to them is an actual interaction. They communicate back and can respond to words, tones, gestures, etc. It's not crazy to talk to your dog.

When people anthropomorphize things like their car, they know it's not real. If I asked my car if it was ready to rock 'n roll as I was about to lay a giant patch, if it answered I would drive myself straight to the doctor to have my head examined.

There's nothing arrogant in saying I am immune from a powerful religious experience when in fact thus far I have been immune from a powerful religious experience. The fact that I was raised in an areligous house probably has something to do with that. I understand you'd concede that as you're acknowledging that these experiences stem from a social atmosphere, but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous for a grown person educated in Canada to believe in demons. It's utter nonsense.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So, we can conclude that virtually every person who believes in demons is really an unintelligent, uneducated half-wit?

We can absolutely conclude that their belief in demons is a completely unintelligent, uneducated belief, yes. That everybody should agree on. I won't go so far as to sum up their entire person with the same descriptors, but if that's the only piece of information I know about somebody it sure will colour my impression, as it should.

By the way, I love how you baited somebody like me with your faux in-passing remark about your relative believing she conversed with god and talked to demons, then feigned indignation when I took it. I knew it was what you were doing, but well played anyway.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

My argument in this thread is not for the existence of God, or angels and demons, or spiritual forces of any kind. You are completely missing the point here which is this: Even fully functioning, well developed, socially and mentally well adjusted people can come to believe some incredible things. It is foolish and arrogant of us to belittle one's intelligence or their mental capacity solely on the basis of their beliefs.

I'm not missing the point at all. You're muddying the point with your eloquent nonsense. Of course it's reasonable to belittle people for believing stupid things.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Think about this:
You and a couple of other posters in this thread have already passed judgement on my mother-in-law as "mentally deficient," "delusional," "crazy," and suffering from having "only half a brain" because of what I have reported about her beliefs. You have done so without ever having spoken to her, met her, or even seen her. It's presumptuous and ignorant; I say that because you are not taking into account and as far as I can tell simply have no appreciation for the many factors and variables that produce belief.

Textcritic, your mother-in-law may not be delusional, but she is certainly behaving like a delusional person with a mental deficiency if she is talking to demons and conversing with god. God can't talk to you. Demons can't talk to you. If you claim they can you have a problem.

And give me a break with this presumptuous and ignorant BS. As I said above, you cast your line hoping for a fish and caught one. Don't pretend this exchange came about organically...it's exactly what you wanted when the only thing you have ever said about your MIL was that she has imaginary friends. If you told us she liked to volunteer her time rescuing orphans I would have thanked your post. You gave us the tidbit about her that was going to raise eyebrows.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Good call!

The funny thing is that I suspect that I don't even disagree with his worldview. I'm a committed evidentialist, but what I really take issue with is this unbelievably pompous insistence that the failures of others to conform to his standards of evidence and reality somehow qualifies that person as marginal, stupid, or mentally or socially handicapped.

People by and large need to realize that we are all capable of many of the preposterous and unpalatable thoughts and behaviours that we impugn in others.

My standards of evidence? You have to be kidding me. Guy, demons don't exist. Quit pretending I have some warped sense of reality or unreasonable standards of evidence.