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Cheese · 03-03-2006, 01:40 PM

There are hundreds of countries that dont have an "electorate".

There are 191 countries belonging to the UN.

A statistical ranking on most of them, based on civil and political liberties, is here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/dem_civ_and_pol_lib

Its about a 50/50 split.

So we agree here....1/2 the worlds countries arent democratic in a western sense.

Do I like that system? Nope....but it is their system and in China it serves Billions of people. Those Billions appear content to live within those boundaries....at this point. Those boundaries suggest that the "few can and do make rules".

How would you know if they are content? You don't. OR, we could look at the increasing level of rioting and civil disobedience events in China as a gauge that contentment is on a decreasing trend.

Well I DO know they appear to be happy in their way of life...and I do much work with them so I do get to talk to business partners and I do have 3 Chinese people I work closely with...and I have been there....and we have a few CPers who travel to China extensively for business. I am 100% sure there are many of the Billions who would prefer the western way...I am also 100% sure there are many who prefer the way they have it. Maybe your assuming the entire world would be a better place with a westernized view of democracy? There is also Civil disobedience in western society...this is not a symptom only of China or non westernized nations.

Countries such as Canada, the USA,, Britain, etc etc are also completely aware of this type of Government, yet feel free to have complete diplomacy and allow their corporate citizens to set up shop within Chinese borders. I guess democracy is what you make of it...our Governments dont seem to mind selling their wares to the Billions, even with limitations. Simply because they are not set up like western civilization doesnt make them bad...or worse. They are different.

One of the better ways to press them to democratize is through free enterprise. The controversy over Google search engines in China is one modest example of the poop hitting the fan. I see democracy as inevitable in China simply because of the way the economy is going . . . . although the country might fracture first.

Do you think 1.6 billion Chinese would vote for communism?

LOL...so forced democracy? Is that the same as forced religion? Anyways China might move to democracy...but the pendulum swings both ways Cow.

You might not be wringing your hands about radical Muslims, but there might be millions of others who do.

I didn't say I wasn't wringing my hands about radical Muslims.

I said I wasn't wringing my hands about radical Muslims getting elected in a fair process AND having to face the electorate a second and a third time to answer for their policies.

The former is a largely faceless and nebulous thought while the latter is the face of a nation, with all the responsibilities and consequences that goes along with that.

The latter also represents the truth of what a population feels . . . . and is easier dealt with on that basis.

Pundits have observed that election of hardcore Islamists is probably inevitable as replacements for Middle East dictatorships as those groups are the groups who often run hospitals, schools, etc and therefore are seen as a positive force for change to long-oppressed and disadvantaged peoples.

I was talking the same thing you are...in less prose. We disagree completely on the allowance of religiously based parties being elected. Im assuming you would be ok in about 20 years with a Muslim based party being elected in Canada? Is that possible? Maybe we'll be too old and wouldnt give a damn anyways.

The fact that these political parties are controlled by organizations whose bottom line is an adherence to a specific type of religion obviously dont understand the separation of church and state either.

Turkey has elected what we might consider to be hard core Islamist government . . . . . yet they are forced to govern on a different plane because they DO have to face the electorate again.

As another example, there are many who feel that if free and open elections were held in Iran, that you would see a 180 degree difference in how that country approaches the world. But we don't know the truth since free elections have not been held there.

I would prefer the separation of church and state but there are peoples in the world who may feel religion should be part of government . . . . . and IF they elect parties representing that train of thought, THEN we can say we are dealing with truth.

In China and other places, we don't know what the truth is. Its probably not communism though!!!

I think Communism as we knew it is a non entity for the most part...small pockets like North Korea excepted. There are the odd exceptions to every rule Cow...like Turkey. Hell theres exceptions to the democratic rule as well. I still think we need to seperate the two entities completely.

03-03-2006, 01:40 PM	#59
Cheese Franchise Player Join Date: Mar 2002 Exp:	There are hundreds of countries that dont have an "electorate". There are 191 countries belonging to the UN. A statistical ranking on most of them, based on civil and political liberties, is here: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/dem_civ_and_pol_lib Its about a 50/50 split. So we agree here....1/2 the worlds countries arent democratic in a western sense. Do I like that system? Nope....but it is their system and in China it serves Billions of people. Those Billions appear content to live within those boundaries....at this point. Those boundaries suggest that the "few can and do make rules". How would you know if they are content? You don't. OR, we could look at the increasing level of rioting and civil disobedience events in China as a gauge that contentment is on a decreasing trend. Well I DO know they appear to be happy in their way of life...and I do much work with them so I do get to talk to business partners and I do have 3 Chinese people I work closely with...and I have been there....and we have a few CPers who travel to China extensively for business. I am 100% sure there are many of the Billions who would prefer the western way...I am also 100% sure there are many who prefer the way they have it. Maybe your assuming the entire world would be a better place with a westernized view of democracy? There is also Civil disobedience in western society...this is not a symptom only of China or non westernized nations. Countries such as Canada, the USA,, Britain, etc etc are also completely aware of this type of Government, yet feel free to have complete diplomacy and allow their corporate citizens to set up shop within Chinese borders. I guess democracy is what you make of it...our Governments dont seem to mind selling their wares to the Billions, even with limitations. Simply because they are not set up like western civilization doesnt make them bad...or worse. They are different. One of the better ways to press them to democratize is through free enterprise. The controversy over Google search engines in China is one modest example of the poop hitting the fan. I see democracy as inevitable in China simply because of the way the economy is going . . . . although the country might fracture first. Do you think 1.6 billion Chinese would vote for communism? LOL...so forced democracy? Is that the same as forced religion? Anyways China might move to democracy...but the pendulum swings both ways Cow. You might not be wringing your hands about radical Muslims, but there might be millions of others who do. I didn't say I wasn't wringing my hands about radical Muslims. I said I wasn't wringing my hands about radical Muslims getting elected in a fair process AND having to face the electorate a second and a third time to answer for their policies. The former is a largely faceless and nebulous thought while the latter is the face of a nation, with all the responsibilities and consequences that goes along with that. The latter also represents the truth of what a population feels . . . . and is easier dealt with on that basis. Pundits have observed that election of hardcore Islamists is probably inevitable as replacements for Middle East dictatorships as those groups are the groups who often run hospitals, schools, etc and therefore are seen as a positive force for change to long-oppressed and disadvantaged peoples. I was talking the same thing you are...in less prose. We disagree completely on the allowance of religiously based parties being elected. Im assuming you would be ok in about 20 years with a Muslim based party being elected in Canada? Is that possible? Maybe we'll be too old and wouldnt give a damn anyways. The fact that these political parties are controlled by organizations whose bottom line is an adherence to a specific type of religion obviously dont understand the separation of church and state either. Turkey has elected what we might consider to be hard core Islamist government . . . . . yet they are forced to govern on a different plane because they DO have to face the electorate again. As another example, there are many who feel that if free and open elections were held in Iran, that you would see a 180 degree difference in how that country approaches the world. But we don't know the truth since free elections have not been held there. I would prefer the separation of church and state but there are peoples in the world who may feel religion should be part of government . . . . . and IF they elect parties representing that train of thought, THEN we can say we are dealing with truth. In China and other places, we don't know what the truth is. Its probably not communism though!!! I think Communism as we knew it is a non entity for the most part...small pockets like North Korea excepted. There are the odd exceptions to every rule Cow...like Turkey. Hell theres exceptions to the democratic rule as well. I still think we need to seperate the two entities completely.