[cDnStealth]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

Spoiler!

The article you link to doesn't appear to offer anything new to the discussion. Much of it is criticism of storytelling techniques and we just have to accept the (1) neither of us are idiots and (2) we nevertheless disagree in our judgments about the ending's naturalness or artistic merit.

I think I'll mostly just be repeating myself at this point. I'd respond that there's no way of "showing" that the war is unwinnable other than to experience it right to the end and that's not an option to those making military evaluations in an uncertain situation. Again, I'm completely convinced that the war is unwinnable and that clearly the characters in the story are as well. You can disagree with this, of course, and say that they were wrong, but let's be clear that within the parameters that Bioware presents, the Crucible really was their only hope, even if you yourself would have written a different story. I think that's an understandable criticism of the story but it's not something that illogical within the story that is actually told.

I think that's a discussion that you can have but it's not really something you can use as evidence of Bioware's incompetence as writers. You can certainly criticize the whole idea of the Crucible. What made it more interesting to me was that it had been planned for many cycles, not just by Protheans. And just the alien unsettling uncertainty about it. They're trapped inside a nightmare and here's this thing they don't fully understand. And once it's in place, it changes the Catalyst, making all the options available. All along they have been at the very edge of their understanding of the universe. Is the fact that Shepard talks to the Catalyst really such a huge game changer that it takes you out of the story? I just don't think so.

To me it's clunky writing only on the surface. It doesn't introduce as much as some say it does: it gives (1) the reason why the Reapers do it and (2) the three ways that you can use the Crucible. Would it have been so radically different if Shepard had simply been presented with a VI interface rather than an old AI?

As for why the Reapers don't "lock down" the mass relays and stop the Crucible. Well, I suppose if they were in the position to do that, they would have, but obviously they were not in control of the Crucible or the relays. I don't know why you assume that they could lock down the relays. Has something like ever been referred to?

I'm not sure destroying the relays would have been a sound plan for the alliance even if it was possible. It would only leave the forces more vulnerable. The Reapers can move through "dark space", they have all the time in the world, they are the ones who don't need the relays. And the relays are extremely difficult to destroy, and there are no guarantees that you'd be able to catch a significant number in an explosion.

I have to repeat that I don't understand the idea of going down fighting on your own terms, when you consider the stakes. Shepard is forced to make an impossible choice under impossible conditions, I agree with that, but to me it's clear that she has to do it. That's the plan. She can't just sit down and cross her arms and let the chips fall where they may.

Look at it this way. She can sacrifice her own life in the hope that it will end the war even if she can't know what will actually happen. That's just her life. She has to try it. If nothing happens, they've only lost her, and she's pretty much at the end of her road anyway. In that case the war will simply go on. Possibly sacrificing every advanced species by not following the plan in the hope that they'll somehow win a war they themselves have evaluated as unwinnable with conventional means, that's just not an option.

The fact that she isn't presented with perfect choices under perfect conditions, that's just life. She is barely conscious and she has to make that kind of choice! Unfair! Crazy! Yes, life is unfair and crazy and you never get perfect conditions. I fully agree that it's an insane situation. But as I was playing it, too late at night, a bit tired, I was there, I was with the story right to the end. It didn't occur to me to rebel against the whole situation. I guess I was fortunate that it fit my playthrough of the game. I just lunged forward and hoped for the best. Very gut-level. So for me it worked, and it's not because there was something there that I didn't understand.

And it turns out that the Catalyst was right, at least as far as the Crucible is concerned. It's impossible to verify the idea that synthetics will inevitably wipe out the organics, but the game doesn't ask you to accept that part. You can choose outcomes that will end the war but in the Catalyst's view eventually lead to more conflicts and ultimately the extinction of all organic life.

Really the desperation of the whole situation has to be appreciated. Just the rush toward the beam of light in London shows just how dire the situation was. Events were just rushing forward like in a nightmare.

I will answer a few of your questions.

Spoiler!

1. It doesn't matter what the avatar of the god/AI is. It could be Santa Clause and I would still dislike it as a plot ending device.

2. The whole Reapers locking down mass relays thing was specifically told in ME1. That was their plan. Take control of the Citadel, kill the leadership and shut down the mass relays to isolate systems. They are in control of the Citadel at the end act of 3 so why can they not use it? Bioware doesn't address it so I have no way of knowing. But to me it comes across as a plot hole albit, one I am willing to overlook.

3. I'll end it with this. The reason you don't understand the going down fighting argument is because we don't see eye to eye on the choices that we're given at the end. You see a valid solution to Reapers. To me the 3 choices are all completely unacceptable. All of them. They go against what I believe my character is fighting for. So what alternatives are left?

As you said, the Crucible was THE gamble and to me it failed. But I am not given the only other option I have left. It doesn't matter if it's the smart decision or the right decision. What matters is that it is the only choice available to me now that everything else (in my mind) has failed. You say that Shepard has to make one of those choices because the stakes are so high and I am saying I cannot because of the same reason. You are saving the galaxy while I am dooming it. That's the difference in our opinions. I for one think it's great that 2 people can play the same game and get a totally different experience. I just wish the ending had concluded the journey in a more satisfying way.