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swat · 02-10-2006, 04:57 PM

First of all... I am a Muslim who just happens to like hockey. That is why I am here. I generally lurk in hockey forums without posting, as I am still not knowledgeable enough to contribute meaningfully. Anyway, those who wish can now talk to a real person instead of having to talk about "them", "why do they...", "why don't they...".

I won't preted for a minute that I speak for all 1.3 billion people (give or take a 100 mil), but I like when Off-topic threads like this one turn into dialogue rather than... well, you know. ALSO, for my part, I promise not to burn any flags, embassies or effigies, throw rocks, or chant stuff.

So, I will start by giving my answers to the FAQs:

Why do you get worked up about the cartoons?

It is not really just about the cartoons, regardless of what some people on both sides want you to believe.

The extremists in some of the protests want to recruit people for their cause. They don't need some complex tolerance-discourse mumbo-jumbo. Lesson in extremism 101: Don't waste your time on the educated people. Appeal to the poor, ignorant, and discontent first. The message is a really simple one--they broke our taboo by insulting our Prophet, let's get them.

The extremists on the European (and Western, in general) side got a perfect tool to recruit people for their xenophobic (and other) agendas. "Look how violent these Muslims are?" Speaking of violent protest, if you do the math [the formula for each country is (number of protesters)/(total Muslim population)] you get a pretty good picture of the extent of the violent tendencies.

So what is it about if not just the cartoons?

It’s about stereotyping and prejudice. A cartoon depicting a founder of a major religion as a terrorist implies that his followers are terrorists. Someone here already posted a link to article about that. “All Muslims are terrorists” (in this country) is as bad as “All ____ are lazy” or “all ______ are drunkards” Fill in the blank with a minority of choice. The often overused quote (by Oliver Wendell Holmes, I think) certainly applies here: "Watch your thoughts, for they become words, choose your words, for they become actions.[…]“

It’s about being labelled a terrorist and maybe getting a one-way ticket to Guantanamo Bay one day. Or things can escalate further and we will have the return of internment camps. Remember those from your history class?

But Muslims are so hypocritical--they are demanding the rights they wouldn't give to others!

Those who “give” rights are governments and courts the last time I checked. You don’t think I wish I could summarily “give” equal rights to minorities in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or any other Muslim country? The highly corrupt Middle Eastern (and other) regimes undoubtedly lead the world in human rights violations. But some perceive that somehow ALL 1.3 billion of us gave those governments, as if we were a part of some Borg-like collective consciousness, the mandates to abuse and oppress others.

Have you noticed that people in most of those countries react the same way whatever the issue at hand? Rally, burn flags and effigies, chant “Death to Israel!” Rinse and repeat. This happens in both Iran and in Pakistan, the ally of the West. And yes, many of us Muslims are outraged by the random Middle Eastern accusations against Israel and this idiotic need to hurt people by denying Holocaust.

You can’t dictate us what to do, it’s your religion not ours!

True enough; I (and many others) would never dream of that. That is why I wouldn’t ask you to stop serving pork in restaurants. That is why I don’t demand to get Fridays off instead of Sundays, nor do I want to force hospitals to circumcise your boys. Do I protest food advertisements in daytime during Ramadan? Or do I advocate/practice polygamy? (Incidentally, there is a polygamous sect in Western Canada, but it’s not quite Muslim, is it?) Do any other Muslims you know of in Canada demand any of the above? If they do, please post their contact info, I would like to set them straight.

By the same token, one could say that Christians cannot dictate to the public, including to those Christians who are not practicing. But if someone depicted Mary as a prostitute and Jesus as a child whose father was some Roman soldier, shouldn’t that give Christians the right to be outraged? OF COURSE IT SHOULD. It is an unnecessary insult, with no value as social commentary. If you portray Moses as a covetous, money-grabbing stereotype of a Jew, should the Jews be outraged? OF COURSE. And some of them can tell you what German free speech cartoons felt like in the ’30s and ‘40s.

Finally, a few comments on some of the things I read so far in this thread.

Cheese,
Of the countries and regions you or someone else copied from Michael Savage’s web site as having ongoing Muslim battles, I can only speak about one (Kosovo) and I can tell you that that one has nothing to do with religion. What is conveniently left out is that Albanians are either Muslims or Catholics, while Serbs are Orthodox Christians. Savage also fails to mention at least 25 years of background events that led to all that. His snuff films and images fail to include many of the things I have seen and had done to me. I still don’t blame all Christians for it. If you’d care to see some of it find the documentary “Death of Yugoslavia” or check out the book by Ron Haviv Blood and Honey. Both are published by the Western media and journalists. Here is a taste of it from MSNBC (please note that clicking on some of the links will take you to disturbing images) : http://msnbc.com/news/484122.asp?b=hi

A few random thoughts that may or may not contribute to a meaningful discussion:

Why was Marilyn Manson’s concert cancelled in Calgary in 1997?
Anyone remember Rodney King riots?
Was David Ahenakew exercising free speech?

02-10-2006, 04:57 PM	#132
swat Draft Pick Join Date: Feb 2006	First of all... I am a Muslim who just happens to like hockey. That is why I am here. I generally lurk in hockey forums without posting, as I am still not knowledgeable enough to contribute meaningfully. Anyway, those who wish can now talk to a real person instead of having to talk about "them", "why do they...", "why don't they...". I won't preted for a minute that I speak for all 1.3 billion people (give or take a 100 mil), but I like when Off-topic threads like this one turn into dialogue rather than... well, you know. ALSO, for my part, I promise not to burn any flags, embassies or effigies, throw rocks, or chant stuff. So, I will start by giving my answers to the FAQs: Why do you get worked up about the cartoons? It is not really just about the cartoons, regardless of what some people on both sides want you to believe. The extremists in some of the protests want to recruit people for their cause. They don't need some complex tolerance-discourse mumbo-jumbo. Lesson in extremism 101: Don't waste your time on the educated people. Appeal to the poor, ignorant, and discontent first. The message is a really simple one--they broke our taboo by insulting our Prophet, let's get them. The extremists on the European (and Western, in general) side got a perfect tool to recruit people for their xenophobic (and other) agendas. "Look how violent these Muslims are?" Speaking of violent protest, if you do the math [the formula for each country is (number of protesters)/(total Muslim population)] you get a pretty good picture of the extent of the violent tendencies. So what is it about if not just the cartoons? It’s about stereotyping and prejudice. A cartoon depicting a founder of a major religion as a terrorist implies that his followers are terrorists. Someone here already posted a link to article about that. “All Muslims are terrorists” (in this country) is as bad as “All ____ are lazy” or “all ______ are drunkards” Fill in the blank with a minority of choice. The often overused quote (by Oliver Wendell Holmes, I think) certainly applies here: "Watch your thoughts, for they become words, choose your words, for they become actions.[…]“ It’s about being labelled a terrorist and maybe getting a one-way ticket to Guantanamo Bay one day. Or things can escalate further and we will have the return of internment camps. Remember those from your history class? But Muslims are so hypocritical--they are demanding the rights they wouldn't give to others! Those who “give” rights are governments and courts the last time I checked. You don’t think I wish I could summarily “give” equal rights to minorities in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, or any other Muslim country? The highly corrupt Middle Eastern (and other) regimes undoubtedly lead the world in human rights violations. But some perceive that somehow ALL 1.3 billion of us gave those governments, as if we were a part of some Borg-like collective consciousness, the mandates to abuse and oppress others. Have you noticed that people in most of those countries react the same way whatever the issue at hand? Rally, burn flags and effigies, chant “Death to Israel!” Rinse and repeat. This happens in both Iran and in Pakistan, the ally of the West. And yes, many of us Muslims are outraged by the random Middle Eastern accusations against Israel and this idiotic need to hurt people by denying Holocaust. You can’t dictate us what to do, it’s your religion not ours! True enough; I (and many others) would never dream of that. That is why I wouldn’t ask you to stop serving pork in restaurants. That is why I don’t demand to get Fridays off instead of Sundays, nor do I want to force hospitals to circumcise your boys. Do I protest food advertisements in daytime during Ramadan? Or do I advocate/practice polygamy? (Incidentally, there is a polygamous sect in Western Canada, but it’s not quite Muslim, is it?) Do any other Muslims you know of in Canada demand any of the above? If they do, please post their contact info, I would like to set them straight. By the same token, one could say that Christians cannot dictate to the public, including to those Christians who are not practicing. But if someone depicted Mary as a prostitute and Jesus as a child whose father was some Roman soldier, shouldn’t that give Christians the right to be outraged? OF COURSE IT SHOULD. It is an unnecessary insult, with no value as social commentary. If you portray Moses as a covetous, money-grabbing stereotype of a Jew, should the Jews be outraged? OF COURSE. And some of them can tell you what German free speech cartoons felt like in the ’30s and ‘40s. Finally, a few comments on some of the things I read so far in this thread. Cheese, Of the countries and regions you or someone else copied from Michael Savage’s web site as having *ongoing Muslim battles*, I can only speak about one (Kosovo) and I can tell you that that one has nothing to do with religion. What is conveniently left out is that Albanians are either Muslims or Catholics, while Serbs are Orthodox Christians. Savage also fails to mention at least 25 years of background events that led to all that. His snuff films and images fail to include many of the things I have seen and had done to me. I still don’t blame all Christians for it. If you’d care to see some of it find the documentary “Death of Yugoslavia” or check out the book by Ron Haviv Blood and Honey. Both are published by the Western media and journalists. Here is a taste of it from MSNBC (please note that clicking on some of the links will take you to disturbing images) : http://msnbc.com/news/484122.asp?b=hi A few random thoughts that may or may not contribute to a meaningful discussion: Why was Marilyn Manson’s concert cancelled in Calgary in 1997? Anyone remember Rodney King riots? Was David Ahenakew exercising free speech?