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Originally Posted by Knalus
Just don't cry crocodile tears when you get persecuted for your religious beliefs and stand up for what you believe in.
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That goes both ways, don't cry crocodile tears when you (not you you, the royal you) get called out for exhibiting behaviours when the selfsame group claims to have a moral superiority (can't be good without God).
No doubt some people like to catch Christians in a gotcha, just like some people like to catch liberals or conservatives or Vancouver fans in a gotcha.
However I do think a gotcha that contrasts a claim to moral superiority and bad behaviour is maybe more fair, though I know that not all Christians claim that they are morally superior.
It sounds like more and more atheists think that success in something is to get "Christians" mad, so that they can then point to them and claim that Christianity is inherently bad. It's a cynical manipulation of human nature. Not so much what the girl did. What the bloggers who picked up on the story have turned it into. [/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knalus
This is especially true when it appears to many that Christianity isn't and wasn't the primary motivator in getting her fellow students upset at her.
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I read a good chunk of the judgment and the account it gives of the meetings about the issue the religious aspect certainly was the primary motivator; that entered heavily into the decision that was made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knalus
And it's not to say that their point of view has no merit, or that the courts might agree with her from a purely legal point of view. But that person is likely going to receive death threats from idiots. And none of that affects whether or not that point of view is right, or correct, or true.
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I agree, but the motivation is going to arise from the person's attachment to the team name in some fashion; if the person doesn't care for sports their reaction is going to be a lot less emotional.
Same in this case, people are perceiving (incorrectly) the removal of the prayer as an attack on their faith and reacting emotionally to that. A disinterested observer wouldn't have the emotional attachment so wouldn't be prone to uttering death threats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knalus
These responses this little girl received are not the result of the teachings of religion. They are the reason that religious teachings are needed. A 15 yr old kid spewing idiot tweets about a brave little girl, thinking that he is defending his school and faith, is in need of more church, not less. Cause if he went to church, he or she would never get a pastor teaching them that this is right. At least none of the many churches I've attended would say that.
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I think there are tons of examples of leaders of churches and groups of churches setting examples that these kids (and adults, the meetings about this with the adults weren't that much better) are following. Bill Donohue of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights has no problem saying Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity and love anal sex...
Not all churches are like that of course, but the lack of actions by the adults and leaders (they should be shouting down the attacks on this girl, if they truly did outnumber the idiots) in itself is all the teaching the kids need. And the adults actions are positive examples for the kids to follow.
I think I would disagree that their actions are an indication that more religious teachings are needed. It's an indication that more moral teachings are needed. Those may come in a religious packaging, but I think the prayer in question is actually a good example of teachings that I think work against a good morality.
The prayer talks about all kinds of good things a person should be, but it starts out "Our Heavenly Father, grant us each day the desire to...". The desire should come from within, not from an external source. I think the dependency message that some people glean from the Bible is harmful rather than helpful; I cannot do anything myself, if anything good happens it's God, and if anything bad happens it's myself. Not to mention the whole "we're right, you aren't" message.
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Originally Posted by Knalus
My issue isn't the fact that this atheist should shut up and avoid antagonizing people because of what she believes in. Just don't expect others to roll over either.
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And that's fine, but I would expect others to respond in an appropriate and measured manner. I know people's reason tends to turn off when their emotion turns on, and there'll always be people who will just lash out, but I still expect the reasonable behaviour.
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Originally Posted by Knalus
And when people act like bad people, it's not because they are christian that they are acting like bad people, just like it's not because she's an atheist that makes her want to piss everyone else in her school off. Even though it's clear that she did.
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No, but it's because they're Christian that's motivating their responses and the kind of responses ("they can go to hell if they want", one adult at one of the meetings talking about their lack of faith). And as I said if someone makes a specific claim about themselves (source of morality), if they behave in the same way as everyone else, it's fair to criticize based on that IMO.