[Thor]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

I won't deny that this is partially faith based, however, it's also based upon the fact that you, and I and, every other person walking around in this world including the mother was once a fetus.

From your scientific viewpoint when is a fetus a living human being?

To me its when the brain activity really starts, we are our brains and to me that's life. Organs pumping blood, recognizable features, is all pointless if there isn't a brain.

I'm not a doctor nor have I honestly given the matter serious thought, but I think 2-3 months max; earlier the better.

Neuroscientists are becoming more confident in saying when the fetus feels pain for example

However, there may be an emerging consensus among developmental neurobiologists that the establishment of thalamocortical connections" (at about 26 weeks) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of pain.

But ultimately having to decide a set fast date is difficult, its a horrible choice to abort at any point, I would look at the 9-16 week as the area where we would seperate a fetus from real life.

Week 9 to 16


Fetus attached to placenta, approximately 12 weeks after fertilization.


The fetal stage commences at the beginning of the 9th week.[1] At the start of the fetal stage, the fetus is typically about 30 millimetres (1.2 in) in length from crown to rump, and weighs about 8 grams.[1] The head makes up nearly half of the fetus' size.[8] Breathing-like movement of the fetus is necessary for stimulation of lung development, rather than for obtaining oxygen.[9] The heart, hands, feet, brain and other organs are present, but are only at the beginning of development and have minimal operation.[10][11]
Fetuses are not capable of feeling pain at the beginning of the fetal stage, and may not be able to feel pain until the third trimester.[12] At this point in development, uncontrolled movements and twitches occur as muscles, the brain and pathways begin to develop.[13]

I don't see how telling a woman at what point of development the fetus is and even offering to allow the woman a choice to hear the hearbeat and see the child is an obsticale. If the woman doesn't want to see the child and doesn't want to hear the heartbeat she's not forced to.

As long as she's not forced to, no law should mandate what the doctor should do with their patient. I hope the doctor lets he know all the facts, where the baby is in development, risks, options, etc..

Getting information should be considered a good thing to make an informed decision. If it changes her decision to get the abortion than that is a fully informed decision she made. If she decides to proceed with the abortion again at least she made an informed decision. Why is providing relevant information considered an obsticle?

She should be informed, we fully agree on this point. It is just a matter of passing laws forcing a woman to view an ultrasound, in what free society do you not become bothered by the state doing this to an individual choosing a legal procedure?

I want to make this clear, because often people who support pro choice are looked upon as heartless and misguided human beings. I hate the idea of ending life, even if its very early on. But I strongly feel the woman has the right to decide what to do with her own body, and we can only legislate within reasonable bounds to allow women the right up to a point when they can end their pregnancy.

One of my sisters had an abortion a long time ago when she was only 23, it was a very difficult decision for her and the family really stepped up to comfort and support her. I can't imagine living in a country where she didn't even have the option, that to me is unacceptable and that is the prevailing opinion in the vast majority of the free western world.