[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by transplant99@Sep 10 2004, 02:55 AM
Transplant99 said:

A whole bunch of mindless sh*t that drones on and on about how the Iraqi's have buried the evidence and America was justified in going against the United Nations wishes in regards to a potential invasion of Iraq and the search for Weapons of Mass Destruction. Excepts to follow...

Holy smokes, where to start?

I'll make this post Cowperson friendly too, with lots of links and lots of reading.

It's nice to see that you finally admit that the US went against the wishes of the UN and unilaterally made the decision to attack a country guilty of, at the time, nothing more than playing a cat and mouse game with weapons inspectors. I hope it felt good to finally cast down your cross and get that off your chest, because arguing otherwise was a waste of time. It seems that everyone in the world saw this as fact, except you. Hell, even President Bush has dropped this tired line of BS and has admitted they ######ed up. Welcome to reality.

I’ll educate you in the errs of your ways by argument, rather than trying to wade through the confusing document that we’ve generated (I really miss being able to nest quotes). Hopefully this will be easier to read, especially for the ones with poor reading skills, like yourself.

Motivations.

Isn’t it funny how the Bush administration keeps changing their story as to why they went into Iraq? I mean, just when one story is about to e ripped to sheds they come up with another excuse. Why not the truth? Why don’t they just come clean? They made the decision on their own a long time ago, had the plan on the books and pounced as soon as opportunity arose.

“Face it, the US went in on their own accord,

Yep..they had the balls to follow up on what everyone else said...agreed.”

The US broke the law and that’s okay with you? Again, how is this different from what the Nazis did in Poland, the Soviets did in Afghanistan and Czech? Unilateral movements by any nation, no matter how lame a coalition they can drum up using their military and economic might, is right. Frontier justice just doesn’t work when you’re trying to tell the world that you are home of all things right and that everyone should practice your form of democracy.

Everything Bush wanted to achieve in regards to terrorism after 9/11 he has washed away with the action of going into Iraq. He has lost world sympathy.

What was it he wanted to achieve exactly? Annihalation?

I thought this whole exercise that the United States, that the world, was under taking was to whipe out terrorism? I thought that President Bush said, just after the attacks, that capturing/killing bin Laden was objective number one, and eliminating terrorism was the ultimate objective? Here’s one speech where he talks about objectives. Iraq isn’t one of them.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20011001-6.html

As this article shows its hard to continue on pursuing the goals you lay out when you shift the resources from one thing to another that is completely unrelated.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/.../5940023.htm?1c

“More made up stuff from your phantom books. If this is the case...why hasnt a SINGLE event occurred on US soil since 9/11?”

I thought this was pretty obvious? The terrorists are having just too much fun making America look bad in Iraq. 1000+ American military dead, countless civilians, and no hope for resolution on the horizon? Iraq is not under control of the Americans. It appears that no one is in control. Terrorism doesn’t have to take place on American soil to affect America. As the kidnapping and live beheading of Paul Johnson proved terrorism can be just effective half way around the world if it is done right. I also think that the tragedy in Russia shows that America has not done a damn thing to curb terrorism and has actually lent even more credence to it being a political tool.


Iraqi Threat

Heck, it seems that more and more people are admitting that Iraq was no serious threat and was used as nothing more of an example, an effort to show America's military might and to scare potential threats into submission. And these aren't small time players either, these are guys that were in the thick of things and were key players to the cause. James Woolsey (former CIA Director), Richard A. Clarke (former Counterterrorism Czar), Anthony Zinni (former commander of CENTCOM), etc. have all stated the threat was minimal, if existent at all, and that the attack on Iraq did not fulfill any of the goals setout in the War on Terror.

Ted Koppel interviewed Woolsey to get his views on what happened.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/nightli...ript030422.html

Woolsey states that the US hit Iraq as a show of force and were not sure if WMDs could be found. He even admits that a couple dozen countries have bio and chem weapons, but that you can’t attack them all. He states that Hussein was a threat (contradicting CENTCOM Commander Zinni), but states that so were Syria, Iran, Sudan and Lybia, all countries that HAVE supported terrorism.

Woolsey goes on to admit that “the only way we're ever going to find this, since most of anything that's left is almost certainly buried very secretly, is by what we tried to get Hans Blix to do and he never did, question people who were engaged in the program, the weapons programs.”

The money quote in his interview IMO, “I don't think you should go to war to set examples or send messages.”

Richard A. Clarke, in his book Against All Enemies, speaks about the War on Terror and how Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld hijacked the whole thing and changed the dynamic from hunting al Qaeda to focusing on Iraq. He states that on the morning of the 12th of September, 2001, focus had already shifted from al Qaeda and planning was being done for an invasion of Iraq for sometime in 2002. Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld had already begun promoting the plan they had been sitting on and lobbying for action on since 1998. I recommend this book because it really shares motivations of those involved and how the obvious was ignored.

“Ask the good folks of Kuwait and Jordan and Israel and Iran if this flippin moron was "a threat to no one"....good lord.”

I don’t have to say anything abut this. General Zinni (CENTCOM Commander) will do the talking.

http://www.cdi.org/program/document.cfm?Do...ge=../index.cfm


Weapons Inspection

The Inspector angle is kind of funny. It proves you can’t read. You yourself quoted Kay’s title. “Chief Nuclear Weapons Inspector of UNSCOM”. Now what part of Nuclear Weapons did you miss in his title. Kay’s specialty was nuclear weapons. He reported to Blix in regards to his specialty, nuclear weapons, while Blix oversaw the who inspection process. Maybe you were confused that David Kay was the Chief US Weapons Inspector and didn’t realize that the UN is still considered above and beyond the US to the majority of the world. I know you like to think that the US can just trample all over what ever ideal they like to, but the majority of the planet still holds the wishes of the UN, and the people appointed by that body, to have more mojo than any one person appointed by the United States. And as it turns out, Kay wasn’t so sure about what he was saying after all. Here’s something I found interesting while looking for a link on an unrelated issue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3445975.stm

This is in relation to the search for justification for invasion of Iraq on the US’ part.

“Ms Rice's admissions are being seen as a painful necessity after Mr Kay's testimony to Congress that he did not believe that there were significant stockpiles of banned weapons in Iraq before the war.”

And here’s another one.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2094415

Seems Mr. Kay didn’t share your view afterall, which is why Connie was sent in to lie. Ooops!

LOL!!...OK...im gonna send you my address and tell you that i will be there, and when you find me, i will shake your hand and give you $100...but the day before you want to see me, you have to tell me where you want to find me, and i will have my buddies "escort" you there...and my neighbors wont be allowed to tell you which way i went either....and when you cant find me and complain to the mayor of the city...you can then just say "well he didnt exist from the get go, even though i saw hime before".

Sure, that’s fair. Can I also bring 180,000 of my friends with me, have the full intelligence community at my disposal and we can shut down your state and have a full year to look for you? I suspect that I would find you, or at least traces of you pretty easily.

You seem to think that I don’t think Iraq had WMDs. On the contrary, I know they did. The US sold them to them for crying outloud. That’s how the US was so sure that Iraq had the capacity and was likely sitting on a stash of them. What it doesn’t change is the fact that in over a decade not a single one had been found. There was no reason to go in with WMD as an excuse because of the work the UN had done and was doing.

To put it back on your goofy example of hunting you down for $100, it would be like me saying that you owned a hockey stick at one time in your life and that you still own that damn hockey stick! That hockey stick needs to be produced and if you say you don’t have it, tough, you’re going to produce it. You had it at one point in your life so it means that you are sure to still have it. Yes, it’s a simplistic example, but the basis is the same. You may have given the hockey stick away, may have broken it, may have sold it, may have used it in a game and lost it. Who the hell knows? Bottom line is that you say you don’t have it, my inspectors couldn’t find it. What more can I do? Oh yeah, invide your home and kill your family until you give me that ######ing hockey stick!!!

Conspiracy

“You are spewing the "conspiracy" angle all over this board that the US is controlled by a bunch of guys that are niether elected nor in power by force, but instead control things because they have been around as advisors to those in position of control through 3 presidents and 15 years. OK...got it.”

Now I’m not sure what you mean by a conspiracy? All I have said is that there are potions of Bush’s executive that are leading the way on this, and they have an agenda that does not follow the common sense approach to fighting the War on Terror. These wackos are neo-conservatives and have been lurking around the halls of Washington for some good time. You see this as a conspiracy, but the truth of the matter is that it is fact. A good chunk of the decision makers in Bush’s administration are proud members of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Maybe some of these names will be familiar to you?

Elliott Abrams (http://www.mediatransparency.org/peo...iot_abrams.htm, http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle3341.htm ) … President Bush’s right hand man on the National Security Council. This is the guy that was indicted for lying to congress in regards to the Iran-Contra investigation and was facing jail time for his actions. No worries though. Bush 41 pardoned him and gave him a chance to lie again another day. Who would have thought that he would find himself in charge of setting policy that guides this country less than a decade later? Coincidence that he is also on the board of the Media Research Center (http://www.mrc.org/ ), a body focused on eliminating Liberalism from the media and film, and promoting the propagandist belief that there is a significant bias against the moral Right.

Dick Cheney (http://www.whitehouse.gov/vicepresident/) … Nothing sticks to this guy. He’s as slick as they come. His shady dealings (http://www.moveon.org/moveonbulletin/bulletin1.html, ) are well documented. He started his Whitehouse career in the Ford administration as Chief of Staff and found himself as Secretary of Defense under Bush 41. He’s a self professing Neo-Con and makes no bones about where the country needs to go. He’s a member of the Council on Foreign Relations (http://www.cfr.org/), which just happens to have 10 members from the 9/11 Commission sitting on it as well (conflict of interest?) and is a member of the American Enterprise Institute, an extremely influential right wing “think tank”. The man has direct links to Halliburton (still being paid a seven figure salary while in office) and Enron. Cheney was key in the appointments of Rumsfeld (Defense Secretary), and Wolfowitz (number two at the Pentagon).

Paula Dobriansky (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/biog/2969.htm, ) Under Secretary of Global Affairs. She is responsible for development of foreign policy, so she would likely have no impact on what happens outside the borders of the US nor what the military might have to be involved in. She was one of the signors of the letter that urged President Clinton to invade Iraq back in 1998, a movement that you say does not/ did not exist (link below). She has also worked with the Corporation of Public Broadcasting, a body promoting programming that better suits the Whitehouse’s political agenda (nee propaganda).

Aaron Friedberg (http://right-web.org/ind/friedberg/friedberg.php)... Friedberg is Dick Cheney’s Deputy National Security Advisor. He’s another fellow that is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. He’s a young guy with a Phd from Harvard and is a specialist on the Far East.

Zalmay Khalilzad (http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...lmay_Khalilzad )… the Special Envoy to Afghanistan and to Iraq. This is a guy that oversaw the mobilization, leadership, funding and coordination of, and the media support for, the Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who devastated Afghanistan and Bosnia. His connection to the Taliban and the oil and gas pipeline that was to go through Afghanistan is well documented (http://www.moles.org/ProjectUndergro...ts/7_01/1.html, http://corpwatch.radicaldesigns.org/article.php?id=1149 ). He was a senior State Dapartment advisor on both the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the Iran Iraq War. He’s been in play with the Republicans since the Reagan administration. He was also another of the signators of letter sent to President Clinton urging an invasion of Iraq (line below).

I. Lewis “Scooter” Libby (http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...I._Lewis_Libby )… Libby is an important foreign policy adviser inside the White House and is seen a possible successor to national security adviser Condeleezza Rice. His official title is Vice President Cheney’s Chief of Staff and Assistant to the Vice President for National Security Affairs. Libby was the man tagged as being responsible for leaking the identy of Valerie Plame as a CIA operative (http://www.theunelected.com/lewislibby.html), an offense that normally gets you 10 years in prison. Libby has been working with the Republicans in office since 1981.

Peter W. Rodman (http://www.defenselink.mil/policy/is..._w_rodman.html)... Assistant Secretary of Defense. Another “civilian” in the military machine that has been accused of promoting an unjust war. He’s been with the Repulicans in power all the way back to Reagan. Prior to that he been on the political scene all the way back to Nixon. Rodman is another of the signators of the letter sent to President Clinton urging an invasion of Iraq in 1998.

Henry S. Rowen (http://right-web.org/ind/rowen/rowen.php )… Appointed by Bush as a member of the Commission on the Intelligence Capabilities of the United States Regarding Weapons of Mass Destruction (http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...ss_Destruction) a position that wields great power in decisions in regards the intelligence surrounding Iraq’s WMDs and what the final reorganization of the intelligence community my possibly look like.

Donald Rumsfeld (http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/rumsfeld.html )… is there really any introduction required? The original saber rattler in the Bush administration Rumsfeld’s belief is shoot first, then shoot again, and if the ######er is still moving drop a nuke on his ass! Oh, then ask a question or two. Rumsfeld has had a hardon to get back into Iraq for some time. He is not a popular fellow with the regular forces (http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0805-09.htm) and is a guy that is just way too far on the edge for most people’s likings. He;s charismatic as hell, but he’s loopy. He’s another one of the signators of the letter to President Clinton urging an invasion of Iraq in 1998.

Paul Wolfowitz (http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/depsecdef_bio.html)... Deputy Secretary of Defense, he’s another one of the hawks that has had a hardon to get into Iraq for quite a while. He has direct ties to defense contractors like Northrop Grunman and is considered another candidate to be on the take to getting the war in Iraq to happen. He’s another member of the Council on Foreign relations and yet another signator of the letter to President Clinton demanding an invasion of Iraq in 1998.

Letter to President Clinton http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

Letter to President Bush http://www.newamericancentury.org/Bushletter.htm

These are all players in Bush’s administration and all of them hold pretty powerful positions. Many of them have pull with the military. Now when the military says that it was the civilian leadership that pushed for the invasion of Iraq, then who do you look at? These guys. They all have connections to very right wing organizations promoting the spread of American democracy and industry. They have been linked with a movement to invade Iraq back in 1998. Talk about Iraq came up the day after the WTC came down. Conspiracy? Not when these guys leave a paper trail like this. Jesus, open your freakin’ eyes. Try this link for another view of it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0%...36571%2C00.html

I don’t subscribe to the whole conspiracy theory that the Bush administration sat idle and let the attacks take place, but the argument does hold some merit. I think that there was a level of incompetence involved, and much of it was in the leadership, so I kind of think this goes a bit far. Now what the guys says does hold some water, and if it is true, then Bush and company should be lined up against a wall and used as target practice. Again, I don’t subscribe to this theory, but it does have some support.

Conversely, you seem to have this massive conspiracy theory of your own that the world was against the United States invasion because they were making money hand over fist with back door dealings and midnight rendezvous with Hussein. Care to provide anything that would back that up? Care to list any UN sanctions that we missed against the long list of countries that broke the embargo against Iraq? Please, a paper trail should be easy to follow there to. I’m more than willing to believe that you’re right if you can just produce some proof. I used to think that Cheney was a righteous dude until I had my eyes open to his dark side and the connections he has. Show me, and I’ll believe you.

You’re also saying that Iraq has buried tons and tons of WMDs and that even though the US has been in Iraq for a year and has found a single shred of evidence to support the WMD angle (hence Bush changing his tune again, proving Kerry isn’t the only flip flopper) that they are right and everyone else is wrong. How long before you just admit that the invasion was unjust, the WMD angle was a weak attempt at best to justify an invasion, and that the Bush administration is bullying their way through this mess?

Oh, and here’s another interesting document that should open your eyes. Those outlines the guidelines for commitment of troops to Iraq or anywhere else.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/20...20021002-2.html

If you read this document it outlines that the only way Bush can commit troops to Iraq is if Iraq is considered an imminent threat. Key word here is imminent. As all of this proves Iraq was not an imminent threat and Bush committed an illegal military action without having the support of congress. The situation in Iraq did not meet the terms of the resolution and Bush wasted billions of dollars, untold numbers of lives, to go in and execute a plan that has been on the books for some time. Bush lied. His whole band of cronies lied. This is an illegal incursion with the international community and based on the information in this document from the Whitehouse itself, its illegal here in the States.

There you go Tranny, more than enough proof that you are full of sh*t and the ***holes you support are scum bags looking out for their own agenda instead of that of the American people. Hey, maybe you can go out in your backyard and try and dig up some of that buried proof. Its gotta be hiding around here someplace!