[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Thor

Actually the hitler, communism = atheism points have been done over and over here on CP. To suggest these regimes did their crimes because of not believing in a diety is ludicrous.

I didn't argue Hitler because Hitler did not give up his religious beliefs, if anything he could be considered non practicing. Stalin, Mao, the Kings and Castro all targeted religious institutions and surpressed them heavily. Most of those religious groups though still prevalent in those states were driven underground and still targeted by the state. Up until recently the MSS were actively penetrating religious services in China as they are seen as subversive elements.

Originally Posted by Thor

Even further, the vast majority of Russians were religious under the rule of Stalin/Lenin and those leaders were even involved with the orthodox church.

Maybe, but at the end of the day the heads of those states weren't, and they were the primary axmen.

Originally Posted by Thor

But again if you want to see a state that is mostly non believers you have no examples really until these last 20yrs especially. The UK, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Holland, Germany, France, etc.. These are nations that non-belief is the majority and are nations ruled by democratic principles.

But we're not really arguing that, there was an argument placed that Atheists had never murdered based around the concept of atheism, I strongly disagree with that.

Originally Posted by Thor

Any nations run under a dictatorship like North Korea are ideological theocracies, in which the leaders can often be mistaken for gods like in Japan during the rule of the emperors.

This is not defense for Traditionals comments, just wanted to clarify some facts here.

I disagree with the use of the term ideological theocracies in the most common sense. Because then it becomes a common argument that they believe themselves to be gods so it is a religion to a sense.

Kim Jung Il and his father may have marketed themselves as god figures, however at the end of the day they believe that there is no afterlife there is no god to dictate behavior and that their lifes work is just that a lifes work because when your dead there's nothing.

Castro stated very plainly that he does not believe, he didn't go on to state that I am god.

Stalin was deversive of the pope, the vatican and religious beliefs as a waste of time since you had to achieve everything in your lifespan because there was no great reward or punishment as there was no afterlife. He didn't present himself as a god figure, he did present himself as the saviour of the state but thats far different.