[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by firebug

But it is failing in the United States. Not only are the numbers of people declaring themselves unbelievers increasing, but those who claim affiliation are less 'active' than churchgoers were even just twenty years ago (when measured by attendance and financial support).

Well there's a downward trend in belief but failing is the wrong word. It's certainly thriving in some parts of the United States. I hope the downward trend will continue but the American political and culture climate is very volatile. The tea party and the vitriol being spouted throughout the government is proof of that. The economy is coming back but nobody has fixed the problem that caused the collapse in the first place. It's very easy for discontented and put-down people to fall for idols like religion or fascism. It's what happened after World War I. So the proper term is a 'downward trend' in religion and irrational thinking and not a failing of religion. Progress is being made, but it could turn in an instant.

Originally Posted by firebug

Secularism has a longer history in Europe that predates either of the World Wars. Additionally, why are Canadians increasing in secularity without suffering the depravity of the World Wars? Also, why are the Scandinavian nations, which were spared much of the depravity of the World Wars, leading Europe in their unbelief?

Yes secularism has a long history in Europe but so does religion and religious fundamentalism. These things ebb and flow. My contention is that World War II was the catalyst of Europe's current widespread embrace of secularism. Europe in 1939-1944 has to be a time when humanity was its most irrational. Then the war ends and everyone awakes to the horrid depravity in front of them.

Rational thinking and secularism seemed like the best place to go following that, but without World War II Europe would never have had that awakening. Scandinavia was spared mostly from World War II but they were still a part of it, in a way that North America wasn't. North Americans could disconnect themselves from the Europeans. They could still maintain a moral superiority that Europeans could not. A moral superiority that was maintained throughout the Cold War and based on religion. The God-fearing righteous Americans vs. the Godless Communists.

Canada is increasing in secularity for much the same reason the United States is, education and advances in scientific thinking. But at a faster rate because Canada identifies more with European society and they weren't tied up in the Cold War.

I'm not saying education and scientific advances haven't pushed Europe and the first world more towards secularism, I'm saying there are other reasons too. The assumption of continuing progress in secularism and rationality is naive.

Originally Posted by firebug

Young people already are far less religious than their parents (see here), and the trendlines are not looking good for the religious.

I've seen these numbers before. I'm not arguing against a downward trend. Just the assumption that it will continue forever and always.

Originally Posted by firebug

Where is the evidence for this?

Throughout history, tough economic times lead to discontent among people. Post World War I Germany is the most obvious example of this. You see this in every society, things go bad and people get desperate. This discontent will make people easily manipulated to irrational viewpoints like religious fundamentalism, racism, and other prejudices.

Originally Posted by firebug

That is likely true. However it is also likely true that rational thinking will lead to much more of the good times and less of the bad.

I agree. I'm just arguing against your assumption of continuing progress in rational thinking.

Originally Posted by firebug

Major exploitation based upon which frame of moral reference? Certainly the fact that some are outraged by exploitation is more a reflection of our increasingly rational understanding of human rights.

For many centuries travesties of untold horror were waged upon developing nations. Much of this was justified by an appeal to the irrational (ie. divine manifest)

I agree. I was just saying we have a long way to go before we can be considered a rational society.

Originally Posted by firebug

I am curious why you would find these emotions irrational. I certainly don't.

I don't find the emotion to be irrational, but who we choose to love is irrational. One does not use reason in deciding who to love.