[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Thor

I'm not an expert, I'm certainly well versed in middle eastern politics and society, its one of my side passions as I do truly think modernizing the middle east is a major factor in securing our future security of this planet.

I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to all this stuff, from Ayaan Hirsi Ali to websites like http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ and many other human rights websites.

I take my queue not from academic debate but from the obvious, very much reported women's rights violations that are being committed in all of the muslim world, no matter the level of 'westernization.'

Well if you've read the Qu'ran, here's a few passages that might somehow demean a modern woman:

I have tons more if you need to see the typical misogyny of the Koran, much like most of the religious texts of all religions of that age.

Semantics, thats cute, in the kingdom outside of the wealth and power there is a massive amount of repressive and extreme form of Islam, it does not need to be pointed out that much of the 9/11 attackers came from this country of modernity and women's rights

I'm passionate about human rights, I'm as passionate about this as I am for gay rights, for equal rights of women in all nations of the world. The fact Islam is one of the worst perpetrators of this is undeniable.

You can be apologetic, but the rights of women cannot be ignored for Islam or any other dogmatic beliefs.

This is a massive fallacy you suggest, while in the western world Christianity might propose a 'stay at home mom' or suggest a woman should not work for the benefit of her family. She is not however subject to lashes, death, rape or any other punishment should she choose not to follow that path.

The west has religious freedom, the Islamic world outside of Turkey has theocracy's and tyrannies that enforce the very strict Islamic law. Even Egypt which used to be a pretty modern Islamic country has started to fall backwards in regards to the rights of women.

The massive problem, is again, that women are not in the poorer and more dogmatic parts of the muslim world given education. So they cannot become part of the discourse or debate to change or modernize their society. Again a lot of this is part of the poverty and desperation of the many muslim nations. There are parts of the muslim world where capitalism and some freedoms have been nothing but beneficial to the women of those societies, but its a massive struggle for equality since even in the most modern islamic societies women have a long way to go.

Like I said originally, I don't think thats a good idea, it should be something women 'choose' to do in a FREE society. Forcing an idea or belief on anyone is wrong.

Its a war of ideology, its a war of education and empowerment. I support fully all things that bring education, secular education, to the middle east. I fight vigorously against the male dominated world of Islam which seeks to shun, treat women as inferiors.

You think I'm not studied on this, thats fine, I've spent a lot of my time and energy in this debate the last 5 years.

Not sure what 'expert' means, but clearly we are arguing from a point of apologetic vs realist

As you say, all religious texts demean women in some manner, but we were talking about burqas, were we not? And burqas do not come from the Quran. So what's the point of quoting general statements from it, and then saying all religious texts do this? If you're trying to debate, stay on topic. Are we now arguing against all religions and their existence, or are we still talking about the particular issues of Islam, and, to be more exact, the burqa?

Its not semantics. It's showing you lack a basic understanding of the culture and religious practices of the various nations that call Islam their primary religion. I believe you're 'studied,' whatever that means, but I don't think you understand the people and cultures that actually practice this. And it shows clearly. Until you show that you are familiar with the actual figures in these situations, that practice this religion, wear the burqa, and read the Quran, and don't just derive your statements and arguments from internet articles, I can't take your arguments in general seriously, and definitely not one against something as specific as the burqa. It's as simple as that. It sounds like mikey_the_redneck saying that some people from a Middle-Eastern country wanted to wear swords to a sports event. One, it ain't the Middle-East, and two, he's referring to the kirpan and Sikhs. Sure, I agree with him in theory, but he still comes across sounding ignorant.

I agree with you on basic human rights, I agree with you that religion has to change (although I don't agree it needs to be somehow eliminated), and I agree with you that certain governments need to change, as well, so do not accuse me of 'ignoring' the rights of women.

Finally, quit saying you'll fight this thing tooth and nail, or else go and join the military and go to Afghanistan. Otherwise, quit with the empty rhetoric. This isn't parliament.