[Thor]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Of course human rights supersedes all. I doubt there are many in CP that would think differently. I'm not an expert. Neither are you. It is so immensely huge of a topic and issue that very few can actually call themselves that without some sort of agenda or bias, but it helps to actually hear and learn from those who are the ones suffering, or not suffering, from the issue. You apply the academic approach after.

I'm not an expert, I'm certainly well versed in middle eastern politics and society, its one of my side passions as I do truly think modernizing the middle east is a major factor in securing our future security of this planet.

I'm a bit of a nerd when it comes to all this stuff, from Ayaan Hirsi Ali to websites like http://www.themuslimwoman.org/ and many other human rights websites.

I take my queue not from academic debate but from the obvious, very much reported women's rights violations that are being committed in all of the muslim world, no matter the level of 'westernization.'

I have read the Qu'ran. I actually own a copy. Have you? Because the preachings about wearing burqas does not come from the Qu'ran. It preaches modesty amongst women (as the Bible does). Where do you think the teachings about burqas come from? I'll let you find that one out.

Well if you've read the Qu'ran, here's a few passages that might somehow demean a modern woman:

2:228 Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

4:11 Allah chargeth you concerning (the provision for) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance, and if there be one (only) then the half. And to each of his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt (hath been paid). Your parents and your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.

24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves, or male attendants who lack vigour, or children who know naught of women's nakedness. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And turn unto Allah together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed.

I have tons more if you need to see the typical misogyny of the Koran, much like most of the religious texts of all religions of that age.

They do not wear burqas in Saudi Arabia. They wear abayas and niqabs. There is a difference, even if you wish to lump them together.

Semantics, thats cute, in the kingdom outside of the wealth and power there is a massive amount of repressive and extreme form of Islam, it does not need to be pointed out that much of the 9/11 attackers came from this country of modernity and women's rights

I will admit, it bothers me that you are so passionate about this without knowing the actual details of the culture and the religion itself, at least not where it concerns the burqa, as the topic is. It bothers me you would say something like the irony of the Islamic world is that the uneducated women are the ones to support their own subjugation when it is how the poor and uneducated all over the world behave, not only Muslims.

I'm passionate about human rights, I'm as passionate about this as I am for gay rights, for equal rights of women in all nations of the world. The fact Islam is one of the worst perpetrators of this is undeniable.

You can be apologetic, but the rights of women cannot be ignored for Islam or any other dogmatic beliefs.

It speaks volumes of the Islamophobia in this country. I understand human rights supersedes all, as it should, and we have it fairly good in Canada, but the Muslim religion is dominated by cultural and regional variances most unlike anything in the Christian world.

This is a massive fallacy you suggest, while in the western world Christianity might propose a 'stay at home mom' or suggest a woman should not work for the benefit of her family. She is not however subject to lashes, death, rape or any other punishment should she choose not to follow that path.

The west has religious freedom, the Islamic world outside of Turkey has theocracy's and tyrannies that enforce the very strict Islamic law. Even Egypt which used to be a pretty modern Islamic country has started to fall backwards in regards to the rights of women.

There is no Pope, no priests in our sense, and no real, 'official' dogma. You follow the Qu'ran... You follow the Hadiths... And on top of all that the cultural values of where you live impact everything, in an area of the world far more ancient and divided than anything we have in America.

The massive problem, is again, that women are not in the poorer and more dogmatic parts of the muslim world given education. So they cannot become part of the discourse or debate to change or modernize their society. Again a lot of this is part of the poverty and desperation of the many muslim nations. There are parts of the muslim world where capitalism and some freedoms have been nothing but beneficial to the women of those societies, but its a massive struggle for equality since even in the most modern islamic societies women have a long way to go.

Something like a burqa ban, besides the implications upon our values, is something that would only serve to infuriate those who already feel isolated as it is.

Like I said originally, I don't think thats a good idea, it should be something women 'choose' to do in a FREE society. Forcing an idea or belief on anyone is wrong.

You can't fight an insurgency with bombs and expect to win, and you can't fight something that permeates a religion and a culture with wide ranging edicts, either. Women's rights in Islam is one of its biggest issues, that's nothing new, and it's a war being fought within it, and it has to change. Things are SLOWLY changing, though, just as they slowly changed in our society, but it will take time. And once the time comes, you will probably still see some women wearing their burqas.

Its a war of ideology, its a war of education and empowerment. I support fully all things that bring education, secular education, to the middle east. I fight vigorously against the male dominated world of Islam which seeks to shun, treat women as inferiors.

You think I'm not studied on this, thats fine, I've spent a lot of my time and energy in this debate the last 5 years.

Not sure what 'expert' means, but clearly we are arguing from a point of apologetic vs realist