Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Aug 8 2005, 08:05 PM
O.K Vulcan I'm going to respectfully disagree.
Kennedy was knee deep in Vietnam, and it was unlikely that he was going to pull out due to his being a massive proponent of the domino theory. Kennedy felt that if the American's showed weakness in Vietnam, it was felt by the Kennedy administration, and re-iterated by his brother that if Vietnam fell to communism, all the rest of South East Asia would fall soon afterwards.
Kennedy's attempts to destabilize Cuba and then invade, combined with his efforts to place SRBM's in Germany futher pushed the Russians into a corner from a MAD standpoint, from a prestige standpoint, plus a defense standpoint. the Russians and Khrushchev felt that if the Americans were going to attempt nuclear superioriority over Russia by placing short range missiles in Germany, the Russians would have to trump that by placing missiles in Cuba.
Its interesting to note that Khruschev was trying to reform the Soviet agricultural and industrial segments, while attempting to improve relations in the west after the Soviets had lost a great deal of international prestige over the Berlin Airlift, the split with China.
Kennedy bumbled the missile crisis not in standing up to the Soviets, but in giving Khrushchev no room to maneuver so he could continue his reforms, because of this, Khruschev was denounced and deposed by his own military and central committee comrades who decided that they needed more hardline leadership in Brezhnev, then former KGB head Antropov followed by another KGB man in Chernenko. These men were considered strong men who would continue the idealogical battle between the forces of socialism vs capitalism, and stand up to the U.S. as oppossed to negotiating with the U.S..
Please also note that it was Gorbachev and not Yeltson, and his reforms including Peristrocha (sp?) and Glastnost (sp?) which did not come into play until the very end of Reagan's first term when Gorbachev was elevated to the top seat in the Central committee, when Regan's use of defense spending and Star Wars forced the Soviets to realize that they were not only dealing with a very strong President who would not buckle as oppossed to Carter, but the hardliners had to realize that they couldn't stand up to the American on a Military, Industrial or Nuclear stage. Reagan's actions forced the end of Chernenko and created the conditions that lead to the installation of Gorbachev a man considered to be a strong reformist who could negotiate with Reagan as oppossed to the previous strategy of bluster and sabre rattling.
Your selling Reagan far short, he accomplished a lot more then Kennedy ever would have. the only thing that Kennedy really did was try to creat a royal family in the White house.
Both were brilliant speakers, both were decent domestically, but if Kennedy hadn't have been shot and killed he wouldn't have been remembered with the same fondness.
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These foreign policy manouvers by Kennedy were pale in comparison to what the right wing advocated. At the time Kennedy was considered a Dove as opposed to the Hawks who would have had no hesitation to overrun Cuba and bomb the hell out of Russia. They were even claiming that in an all out nuclear war the USA could survive even if most of the population was wiped out. In the 64 election [Republican and John Bircher] Goldwater's slogan was "In your heart you know he's right" was countered by Johnson's "in your guts, you know he's nuts". Guess which one was believed. I was no fan of Johnson but you have to understand the strident right wing that wanted to get power at the time.
I screwed up when I said Yelstin instead of Gorbachov.
I realize that Kruschev wasn't an all out bogyman and Kennedy wasn't really a knight in shining armour but they were often reacting to forces beyond their control and I still believe Kennedy was a reasonable man who could change with the times. Some of the newer leaders, not so much.
The shooting of Kennedy was traumatic because he brought hope at a time when imminate destruction seemed only a moment away. He had a lot of friends and a lot of enemies. Even my grandfather, who was as far left as you can get without being a communist hated him because he was a Cathlick. He stepped on a lot of toes but he was no phoney, as I believe Reagan and Bush are or were with their hidden agendas of furthering the military, industrial complex.
As far as Reagon's Star Wars goes they are still not able to shoot down Scud missiles. Talk about an empty threat. Just a few rambling thoughts for you Captain.