[TangerZ]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Sadly Tibet's never been a state so China has full control over them just like any other country has over any of its own regions. Most civilized countries treat their regions fairly but China chooses not to. Unfortunately that's their right.

Extreme case but if Canada refused to let Quebec speak french, or practice its religion, or make it own laws and beat up every Quebecker that pissed off Harper... there's nothing Quebec or the world could do about it.

Let me first say, I like your posts Girlysports (always some cool things, and sometimes with Asian oddthings lol), and even the quoted one above, but there's just one small inaccuracy I wanted to respond to. At the same time, it's not a response to you, so much as it is just some information I wanted to throw out there, as a lot of people are just learning about Tibet, as the last poster exemplified.I am referring to the part about Tibet being a state. So please ignore me Girlysports, it's just something so that I can create awareness.

Tibet was one of the largest empires in all of Asia prior to the 7th Century. At one point the Tibetan empire actually occupied parts of China, including the capital. Chinese historians themselves do not contend this as well, they only dispute when it became a part of China. Tibetans believe it did in 1949, as by and large there were no Chinese that were actually living in Tibet until the late 40's when the Communists came with settlers, and China disagrees saying Tibet became Chinese in the 13th Century. In fact, in front of the main cathedral in Tibet stands a signed peace treaty between Tibet and China from the 7th Century. It was also errected on a stone pillar along the demarcated borders of Tibet and China. It first lists out the borders amongst other specifics, and then states Tibetans should live happily in Tibet and Chinese live happily in China and never shall the two be at war. This was signed by the Chinese Emperor and the Tibetan warring King. After this point however, the Tibetan Empire dissintegrated as Buddhism had arrived to Tibet. Although systems of inequality did exist, by and the large the Buddhist philosophy prevaded every little aspect of daily life. When I mean daily things, it would be like a Tibetan looking at the ground while he walks so as not to step on any bugs etc. At any rate, the mentality changed, and by the time of the 13th Dalai Lama, Tibet was so preoccupied with isolating itself as a form of protecting Buddhism. Hence, the reason for the Shangrila myths in the Western world (although Tibet really is a beautiful place), and the reason Tibetans can list off the foreigners in Tibet without referring to a book, AND the reason Tibetans and Chinese never lived together throughout history (notwithstanding border areas on the plateau in what is called "Greater Tibet", such as Chengdu, Kangding, Tongren and Xining). So for Tibetans, whether or not it was Chinese by official proclamation meant nothing, since in Tibet, only Tibetans lived there. It was an ethnically homogenous society. By the same token, we had our own flag, language, postal system, currency (we have wads of this in our house, I can scan them if you guys are interested in viewing them, the banknotes are huge), national anthem, small army etc. When the Communists came to power is when Chinese actually came to Tibet, this was in 1949 as Mao wanted to make good on the ground reality part of their centuries long official claim which extended to Tibet, because the Mongol Kublai Kham tookover China and since the Mongol Empire had influence(in Asian history called Priest-Patron relationship) in Tibet, through this way Tibet became China. At the time of the takeover of Tibet, it was at least a defacto-independent nation. By design Tibet was not taking part in the world affairs, due to it's isolationist policy (which did them in, in the end), and for this reason added to China's importance, was not recognized as a country. For those foreigners who came to Tibet at the time, almost all 100% agree about Tibet's defacto-independence status, including the International Commission of Jurists (independent international lawyers group see a 1960's report they did). Britain, which had the closest relations to Tibet in the Western world, never did recognize Tibet as part of China, wording the relationship as one of suzereignty. Although China's empire includes, inner mongolia and eastern Turkestan, the Communists made sure that Tibet was the only area of China that had to sign an official document at the time of conquest, to state it's inclusion in China. This was known as the 17 point Peace Plan, which was signed under duress, and denotes Tibet's distinct and special status within China. If it were part of China like the other areas, and not independently working, there would be no need for such an agreement, as was the case with other parts liberated by China.

There's a lot of other great posts and discussions going on in here, and I'd love to reply to them all just so that people are getting the full spectrum of information if they are just reading, but I'm afraid it's going to be one small essay after another. I better just get away from this keyboard. One small, small thing before I stop, I was so glad to see Devil's advocates post, in response to Thor. I responded at length in a previous topic to Thor about this (there's no question Tibet was not perfect, but this shouldn't be justification for alien rule), but I will keep it brief. A segment of Chinese are alleging that the Dalai Lama (14th and current one) is responsible for attrocities in Tibet under the so called feudal theocracy. They fail to see that there were 13 other Dalai Lama's and regents. The current Dalai Lama, did not actually rule Tibet until just before the Chinese came. He reluctantly accepted the leadership at age 16 (he wanted to wait until 18 when all other Dalai Lama's were given full temporal powers), as it was thrust upon him by those corrupted few who were abandoning leadership when news of China's imminent invasion was coming. Immediately he created land and tax reforms, but alas it was too late. Once coming to exile in 1960, he created a democratic government in exile, and myself amongst other Tibetans in Calgary vote for our own Prime Minister and member of parliament. His Holiness promotes the abolition of his own political status, saying he only wishes to be a monk, and wants to even dissolve the Dalai Lama institution based on what the people's wishes are. The government in exile will also dissolve immediately upon reaching an agreement with China to resolve the Tibetan situation. He has reiterated on countless occasions he does not want any political role in Tibet post-resolution, but China still claims that he will take Tibet backward and him and the monks want to re-establish the feudal theocracy (try reading Xinhua or the Tibet daily 3 times a day). Additionally, he places Tibet, third on the order of his life priorities. Not surprisingly, his first priority is to serve humanity he says. So you know, it is difficult for China to find a better guy to negotiate with, there is a reason so many Tibetans in Tibet have called out his name asking for his return in their protests, and almost every single Tibetan I know (including many in Tibet) have or would give up their life for him in a heartbeat, some because of religion, some due to what he means to Tibet, and a lot just because of the human being that he is, Tibetans would never have died for Mao.

The Canadian government recently declassified documents regarding Tibet at the time of the Chinese takeover (a series of letters, faxes fromthe 50's and 60's etc. stating that Tibet was basically independent, but for Canada Tibet relations it can't be stated officially), and it is an interesting read, here's the link in pdf format:

http://www.tibet.ca/_media/PDF/secre...tibet_file.pdf