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Originally Posted by Finny61

Well you go find me an even spread of posts that bring the positives out of religion and those that see nothing of it. You'll find your majority in the latter.

So a meaningful intelligent rational discussion can only occur if there's an equal number of posts on each side of the topic? That seems like an arbitrary way to evaluate it, to me at least.

It's not the job of someone who's an opponent of religion to bring up the positives; that'd be a deficiency on the part of the religious proponents wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Finny61

Also note I'm perfectly comfortable with accepting other possibilities, those others would never dare consider my beliefs, that's what can drive me nuts the most if anything. That's the unhealthiness in this discussion, a lack of being open to religion but shutting the door on it.

I think you mischaracterize those people. A great number of them come from a position of religious belief, so they have considered other possibilities.

And if you bother to ask them "What would change your mind about religion" I bet most would have a positive answer about what would convince them, or what if changed in religion would make it appealing to them etc.

Some have examined religion and in general found it wanting and not redeemable.. that isn't unhealthy as long as they've come to that position honestly and can support it with reasoning. And even those, if new information was provided that compelled them to change their position, I bet they would change.

I know that's one of the reasons I enter into these discussions, is because I am constantly looking for something new, something else to test my ideas.

But I can appreciate your position, a lot of opponents of religion have had a great deal of practice and time, so the list of issues can be substantial and well traversed, so while it can seem like a person is unwilling to listen or consider something, in fact that's often because the thing to be considered has already been considered and discarded many times over, doing it again and again becomes frustrating.

Originally Posted by Finny61

You can't make a dead dog do tricks, if someone has no interest in my belief then how can I convince them otherwise? Right? You have to realize that religion is based on a leap of faith, do I have all the answers ? No. If I did then I guess I'm God.

Well that's true, but if they had no interest I don't think they'd be discussing to begin with. Though I guess some are in it just to convince you.

I do realize that religion is based on a leap of faith, and ultimately I respect you because you admit it and recognize it. It's the people that don't that cause more problems because they try to substantiate their faith with facts, almost pretending it's a science.