[flylock shox]

Whoo!! Now we've got some good discussion going here.

Originally Posted by blankall

I know this is not your intention. But this post is extremely anti-semitic.

It reflects a total ignorance of what a Jewish person is. You do realize that Israel is made up of many many denominations of Judaism and many many ethnic groups of jews?

How is having a Jewish country any different than having an English, a French, or a Polish country? Are unlimited immigrants allowed into England?

That beside the point that most Jews in Israel are about as religious as most Christians are in Canada.

The crux of this argument seems to be that Israelis deserve violence because they are Jews and the only way the would ever deserve peace is to lose their Jewish identity. If your so concerned abut nations based on religion and ethnicity being racist why not start with every other nation in the old world?

To respond to your post first blankall, I do understand their are groups within groups. However, in the context of this region one Jewish person is very much like another and their interests (in as much as their interactions with their Muslim neighbours are concerned) are effectively the same. I don't mean to say all Israelis think alike, that's clearly not the case. But they do all find themselves in a similar position when dealing with conflicts beyond, and sometimes within, their borders. My post overgeneralized, clearly, but if you want to get into the nuances of it, we'll be here all week.

As for how Israel differs from other countries based on a common ethnicity, it doesn't in many ways. But England has been moving away from this model, as has the rest of Europe generally, becoming more inclusive and secular as they go. I don't think Israel can diversify in the same way (and I do recognize it is clearly more inclusive than many of its neighbours) - if they do, they risk losing their identity as a Jewish homeland - the exact purpose for which Israel exists in the first place.

As for being deserving of violence, I have argued no such thing. Nor have I said they should lose their Jewish identity. I have only argued that their inherently exclusive identity places them in a difficult position, and separates them from being a secular state in the supposed Western model. If anyone deserves some peace after the last century (give or take about a thousand years) it would be the Jews, wouldn't you think?

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

None of what you wrote above is true, where did you read any of this? Is it something you believe? There is only one law regarding religion in Israeli immigration, and that is Jews have a right to move to Israel. Other people, just like Canada, can apply to move there. Citizenship is citizenship. If you are an arab citizen, you can run for politics, be in the police, be a doctor, anything. Israel's survival depends not on excluding people, but on educating their people.

But therein lies exactly the problem: you get in based on your ethnic background (and, if I'm not mistaken, even if you have married into it now). Can you not see how this might be offensive to a Palestinian, who may have been born there, lived there, commutes through security borders every day to work there, to see someone with no ties to the region adopted as though this was his or her home? In my view, Israel's survival depends on making peace with its neighbours. It can't continue to engage in conflicts with no end in sight.

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sorry, but anything but trying to destroy Hamas isn't going to work, the time of trying to dissaude Hamas with a punch to the nose is over. There isn't going to be a peace process as long as Hamas retains the ability to launch attacks on Israel.

...

How do you figure that Israel is going to become an extreme state or become more extreme? If anything their unstable form of parliment leads to continual coalition governments which means that there is a shakey balance between moderate and extreme sides.

Of course Israel has a survival mentality. Since their founding they've been on a continual war footing first with Arab Nation states trying to launch wars of extermination, then continual terrorist attacks by groups dedicated to the extermination of Israel and the Jewish people.

Israel seems to have an unfair perception that they're the only group in the region that's supposed to negotiate in any kind of faith, and they're expected to hold up to their side of any cease fire while their opponents seem to get more of a free hand in launching attacks.

Hamas is not going to bend, they don't give to s if their civilians are hurt during this war, they're probably ecstatic when they see casualty reports as they ride from hiding place to hiding place in ambulances and UN painted vehicles as this is a public relation boon for them. Hamas is never going to negotiate in good faith, they're never going to live up to a long term cease fire, and until they're gone or their power base and ability to bring in weapons through Egypt and Lebanon is gone they're not going to stop.

This one is going to the bitter end.

Sorry to pick and choose from your post Captain, but it's a long'un and I've responded to parts of it above. Well, sort of.

The problem with Hamas is that they are not as distinct from the Palestinian population as some would suggest. Theirs is a popular movement, one which was democratically supported. They are a symbol of power to a people that feels powerless. They are seen to do good in the communities in which they exist. They cannot be eliminated through violence because they subsist on violence: that is what feeds them and provides them with hopeless youth to be turned into suicide fodder. The only way to get rid of Hamas through force would be something tantamount to genocide - something I don't understand anyone here to be advocating.

Very clearly, Hamas is not a tenable option for the long term. Ultimately, they cannot exist in a state of peace because, as I've indicated, they would starve in such a circumstance. Sadly, I think the violence will continue, Hamas will continue to serve a purpose, and, as you indicated, this will go the distance.

Originally Posted by HOZ

Just need to get this off my chest.

It is beyond obvious that Hamas is totally at fault for this conflict. To say they WERE fighting an occupation because Israel controls the borders is beyond stupid. That would mean Canada is occupying the USA. It also ignores the obvious fact that one border is with Egypt. They do NOT represent the Palestinian people and neither care or fret about their welfare. They are a Iranian supplied and trained terrorist group that slaughtered a reportedly anywhere from 2000-20000 Palestinian rivals to grab control of Gaza.

Those that defend Hamas are seriously so far gone that no quips or quotes will bring these people back to reality. They are truly a joke.

The UN is a joke and really an adversary. Schools, ambulances and what not are there for Hamas military use. Even the Red Cross has become a terrorist excuser and helper.

That said......

I believe, and I really don't have an right answer for Israel here, that Israel is going about this the wrong way. Yes they needed to stop the rocket and mortar attacks. But this attack is going to turn out badly in the end. What are the goals? Actually, what are the attainable goals?
1) Reoccupy Gaza?
Hamas had no reason to attack Israel. Now the IDF is back occupying Gaza ans gives Hamas everything it needs(whatever that french term is for that) to rearm, recruit, and an obvious visible enemy (in their territory) to fight.
2) Remove Hama and put in the Paletinian Authority?
Ya that sure worked the first time. And did Hamas leave any alive? To do this the IDF would have to be Machivelian enough to make great parts of Gaza a parking lot. Ghengis Khan the SOBs.
3) Pull out and wait for the do-over?

This fight is wrong, not as in wrong morally, just not the answer to the problem. I don't have an alternative or fantastic answer but this was the wrong way to go about it.

HOZ, I disagree with the first part of your post, as indicated in my responses above. I agree with the conclusion you've reached though - this fight will not produce a solution.