Quote:
Originally Posted by Phanuthier
Is it great, no. jammies clearly has no idea wtf China is like. Its like talking to a wall sometimes. Completely ignores first hand opinions and refuses to accept Cuba (been there, 2 years ago), stories from more hten a few in former Yugaslavia (been there, 2 months ago), stories from China (been there, many times)...
Everything but the Western way is lunacy
(jammies I generally like you as a poster, especially on hockey where I think you are an elite poster on this board. But when it comes to this topic in particular, I find you to be too stubborn to view the potential that the other side might have a valid point)
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I respect you as well, but I just don't understand why you cannot see the difference between criticizing the Chinese GOVERNMENT and Chinese culture. Communism is NOT Chinese culture, it is a political system directly derived from Western thought. For that matter, it isn't Yugoslavian culture or Cuban culture, either, it isn't *any* kind of culture.
The whole "way of life" argument is moot. Whether the common Chinese citizen supports the regime is moot. Whether I have been to China or not is moot. I am not arguing whether the people are happy, or whether they think that the government is doing a good job. I am saying that a government that kills and imprisons people for dissidence is evil. I am saying that a government that limits fundamental human rights is wrong. I am saying that a government that blatantly lies about the facts of history is corrupt and indefensible.
These are not issues of cultural relativism. These are statements about political morality. There are Western nations that have embraced dictatorship and there are Eastern nations that are democracies. If I choose to find democracy by far the preferable system, this does not imply that I think "anything but the Western way is lunacy", it simply means that I do not agree with the viewpoint that totalitarian systems are reflections of their nation's culture and are legitimized by it. That viewpoint is the truly offensive one, for it implies that the Chinese people DESERVE nothing better than a repressive and arbitrary regime. Is that truly what you think?
So far I have seen nothing but anecdotal arguments about how personal experience trumps any other point made. Sorry, that just doesn't cut it, any more than someone's personal experience of Jesus is going to convert me to evangelism. That's not being stubborn, that's being objective. If you really want to convince me, why not address the arguments I've made, rather than going back to the idea that the Chinese are happy with their government, so I should be too!
Explain to me why China should rule Tibet. Explain to me why the killing of mullahs in their Islamic provinces is right. Why the Falun Gong should be outlawed and its practitioners re-educated (ie - mentally and physically tortured) in labor camps and psychiatric hospitals. Why all "anti-China" content on the Internet should be censored. How it is that senior Party officials must be bribed to move any enterprise forward. Why they hold forces in readiness to invade Taiwan. Explain even one of these and I will listen - anything else is wasted space.
My entire reason for hating their GOVERNMENT depends on these issues, and I am hardly likely to change my mind unless they are addressed. Is it unreasonable to expect my actual opinions to be argued with?