[jammies]

These discussions always will go around in circles because you are trying to rationally discuss an irrational subject. To claim a God exists is not a conclusion, it is a premise - a premise that is impervious to disproof because any argument against can be dismissed by referring back to that premise as a counter-argument, in the aforementioned circle.

Once you posit a transcendent God, anything becomes possible, as It is not limited by the laws of space, time, or logic. For example, the problem of evil (despite apologists) is not solvable in a universe created by a benign God, but it doesn't matter - in the end, a theist can simply say "we do not understand the ways of God" and no further explanation is necessary. It's the ultimate argument from authority, unchallengeable as long as you acknowledge that authority exists.

As I said in the previous thread, there is a better way to convince the religious that God does not exist - forget about logic and win them over with marketing. Atheism needs to shed its image of being all about disbelief, and turn itself into something that can inspire people. Of course, the disunity of atheism works against such an approach, but that doesn't mean it won't work, just that it is going to be very difficult.

Personally I find being an atheist is exhilarating and liberating. Humanity has suffered through many evils - some of its own making - but if you take a long enough view, you can see that, on balance, there is progress towards wisdom and justice, the rule of law, material well-being for all, social equity, and other "good" things that we have built for ourselves. Is that not worthy of pride, and should it not fill us with desire to continue along the way of progress and enlightenment?

Translating that feeling of pride, and determination to better the world, into a cause worthy enough to sway the believer should be the focus of every committed atheist. Certainly there is a place for criticizing the foolishness of religious-based argumentation, but that shouldn't distract you from exerting yourself for positive commentary in the cause of humanism as well.