[Ch40s]

Since I, like I said before, have grown tired of bickering with you, here is my final stance on both protein and creatine supplements, backed up by references, who, if you don't care to trust, proves to me that the only reason you're taking supplements is because it's a fad.

Protein:

Originally Posted by http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=MBuicho8O54C&dq=fitness+professiona l's+handbook+howley&printsec=frontcover&source=web &ots=ATZlac-9vu&sig=Jg7IQxlk8PQBEkaLB-CvkXvI6u0

(Page 115) For athletes engaging in high-intensity, high-volume resistance training, a protein intake of up to 1.7 g/kg/day may be needed (4)./snip

Originally Posted by http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=MBuicho8O54C&dq=fitness+professiona l's+handbook+howley&printsec=frontcover&source=web &ots=ATZlac-9vu&sig=Jg7IQxlk8PQBEkaLB-CvkXvI6u0

Athletes should meet additional protein requirements through food choices, not through supplements. There is an upper limit to the rate at which muscle mass can be increased; therefore excessive protein intake (i.e., above the recommendations) does not enhance performance or increase muscle mass (4). Because of the higher caloric intake of intensively training athletes, a diet with normal distribution of macronutrients typically contains adequate amounts of protein, so purposefully consuming additional protein is usually not necessary.

This is from the same book, I'd just thought I'd throw it in since you're convinced protein is so difficult to obtain through a normal diet:

Another issue that sometimes arises is the adequacy of protein intake for vegetarian athletes. Because plant proteins are not digested as well as animal proteins, it is suggest that athletes following a strict vegetarian diet consume 1.3 to 1.8 g of protein per kilogram of body weight (4).

If vegetarians - people who don't even eat meat - can get as much protein as an athlete needs (ie, max at 1.7g/kg/day), then I hardly think you have any right to complain about not being able to balance your diet with enough protein.

This is my stance. I, quite frankly, do not give a crap why you think you need to drink protein shakes. I've cited a professional's opinion. This is why I believe it, and I don't care if at this point you don't.

Creatine: (ACSM is the American College of Sports Medicine. Again, if you don't choose to trust them, well... all I can do is shake my head)

Originally Posted by http://www.acsm.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Research/Roundtables_Specialty_Conf/PastRoundtables/Creatine_Rt.pdf

Research indicates that Cr supplementation can increase muscle
phosphocreatine (PCr) content, but not in all individuals. A high dose of 20
gzd21 that is common to many research studies is not necessary, as 3 gzd21
will achieve the same increase in PCr given time. Coincident ingestion of
carbohydrate with Cr may increase muscle uptake; however, the procedure
requires a large amount of carbohydrate. Exercise performance involving
short periods of extremely powerful activity can be enhanced, especially
during repeated bouts of activity. This is in keeping with the theoretical
importance of an elevated PCr content in skeletal muscle. Cr supplementation
does not increase maximal isometric strength, the rate of maximal

force production, nor aerobic exercise performance. /snip

Although Cr supplementation
exhibits small but significant physiological and performance
changes, the increases in performance are realized during very specific
exercise conditions. This suggests that the apparent high expectations for
performance enhancement, evident by the extensive use of Cr supplementation,

are inordinate.

All of this came from simply the abstract. Feel free to read the whole thing as I've provided a link.

What I got from that: Creatine may help performance in specific situations. This suggests to me that the everyday weight lifter simply does not need it, seen in the last sentence where it claims that the expectations for the product are very unreasonable. You may think you need it.. good for you. Here's some more quotes from the same article:

Despite the
potential for gain in “performance” from Cr supplementation,
it should be noted that the changes in muscle total Cr
and PCr caused by Cr supplementation do not mimic any
adaptive changes that occur in response to exercise training

programs.

So when I "lied" about it not having an impact on helping you become stronger.. well I wasn't lying. Furthermore:

Finally,
there is no evidence that Cr directly stimulates protein
synthesis or alters myosin expression in normal differentiated
muscle cells (29,119). Thus, there is no presently identified

anabolic effect of Cr supplementation.

So there we have it. Creatine's limits are well defined at helping to increase the capabilities of your creatine phosphate energy system. Keep in mind that this system is limited to the first ~10 seconds of high-intensity activity, and that's very limiting. (Ie, if your cadence is 2-0-2, that's 4+ seconds per rep, and this energy system stops helping you partway through your set, depending on your rep #). This limit means:

Neither aerobic, high-intensity resistance, nor

sprint training is accompanied by significant changes in
PCr, total Cr content, or Cr kinase activity (65,75).

So there are negligible effects due to Creatine supplements, especially if you're simply someone who goes to the gym 3x a week, and does not compete in any events.

This article did point out that creatine supplements have some use/benefits. I've interpreted these benefits to be reasonable only if you're competing at a certain level (ie sprinting in the olympics). Like with protein, you can feel free to take them, I'm done trying to convince you specifically that they are bad.

This is my opinion. Feel free to read through that ACSM article and mention the points about supplements helping performance. I've pointed out everything that I've gotten out of it. This along with my previous experience tells me I'm never going to need creatine supplements. You may feel you need to, and again, good for you.