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sky7i · 12-14-2007, 02:48 PM

Greetings all,

I'm an Albertan; I grew up in a farm town east of Edmonton, played hockey, went to the U of A, then to law school. I consider myself to be 100% Canadian.

I'm also a Muslim. I've lived in the UK, Italy, and spent time in Pakistan. I've studied under some of the world's leading Islamic scholars in the UK while at Cambridge University.

So perhaps I can bridge the cultural gap here.

First of all, it's nice to see that not all of you are living up to the redneck stereotype. Some of you really are trying to take a fair look at this, and that is reassuring.

I realize that "Sharia law" has become a sort of bogeyman in the western press, where the only time we hear about it is when something truly bizarre happens in its name. There are places on earth where a ized versions of the Shari'a do lead to severe injustice-- the Taliban for example, or their forebears in Saudi Arabia. The key thing to remember here is that these are exceptions, not the rule, for Shari'a. The vast majority of Muslims -- even the ones who live in these places -- look down on the extremists as backwater nuts who are totally unaware of the sophisticated, classical teachings of the Shari'a.

There are many Western countries -- Haiti, Columbia, etc. -- which have very dysfunctional justice systems. This does not mean the Western legal tradition is generally corrupt; it just means that the people who are in charge of it in those countries are not properly qualified to understand, interpret, and implement it. The same thing goes for the Shari'a in parts of the Muslim world.

Now, to address a couple of specific comments:

Captain Crunch & Flames Addiction wrote:
"It is in Sharia law that its allowed and is often lightly punished or not at all. But its one of the more horrible aspects that we've seen."

"And whether or not he moved here to enjoy western freedom isn't the point. The point is that if you do not want your children to have that, then you don't move to a society that has that. And if you are born here and feel you have the right use violence to enforce a dress code, then there are other places to live. It's unacceptable here."

The Shari'a certainly DOES NOT allow anyone to be killed for not wearing a hijab; there is no legally mandated punishment. One of the main purposes behind the hijab is to protect women from men, and to harm someone for not wearing it is totally antithetical to that purpose. There are very few capital punishments in the Shari'a; and those are reserved for severe cases like murder. This is no different than if a Western man had killed his daughter for wearing a mini-skirt out in public-- the dress code is higher, but the real problem is not the dress code, it is that a man is overly controlling of his daughter. There are PLENTY of men like this in our Western culture; in law school we studied many chilling cases of domestic abuse and murder that happened right here in Alberta. It happens all the time here, so regularly that the media doesn't bother on reporting on it unless it's a case with special factors like this case with its supposedly religious angle. Note that here in Alberta, 38,000 (yes, 38,000) women needed shelter last year, and 25,000 were turned away: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/st...-shelters.html I assure you that the vast majority of these women are not Muslim, and that our society isn't really any better when it comes to their treatment. We are very selective in what we notice.

Secondly, the shari'a does not authorize anyone to take "justice" into their own hands. The father has a sacred duty to protect his child. This father who allegedly killed his daughter would be found guilty of murder in a properly functioning shari'a court. For a Muslim scholar's view on "honour killings", read http://www.newislamicdirections.com/...lings_revised/

Thirdly, it is not about "moving here to to enjoy Western freedoms". If you wander around Karachi or Lahore, you will find plenty of women who don't wear the hijab. Trust me, people there can be as narcissistic there as they are here.

Thor/Ford Prefect
But.... Islam is well known in its attitudes towards women, how they are treated quite badly in comparison to our western values. Separated from men at mosques, made to cover up to stop Muslim men from getting dirty thoughts, daughters being punished for the son's crime, gang rape punishments, girls not being allowed to be educated, etc..

Many people do carry stereotypes about Islam's treatment of women, but these are rooted more in myth and cultural misunderstanding than in fact. Each year, thousands of Western people convert to Islam, and the vast majority of these (by a 4-to-1 margin) are women. That would not be the case if Islam was inherently anti-women. Many Muslim saints write about God as a women, their divine Beloved; there is a strong feminine aspect to it.

To answer your specific complaints:
-Men and women pray separately at mosques, but this has nothing to do with male superiority. When we pray, we pray shoulder to shoulder and we bend over several times-- it's quite intimate. Most men, Western or Eastern, would be somewhat distracted from their prayers with a shapely rear-end just a few inches from their noses, and most women (Western or Eastern) would be uncomfortable with that too. Women generally prefer having a space to themselves. The general rule in most mosques is that women can enter the men's area, but men cannot enter the women's area.

-As for the hijab itself, it is not simply to 'prevent men from getting dirty thoughts'. Nothing can prevent that... men think about sex all the time, even hockey players.

Both men and women are expected to dress modestly in order to faciliate a climate of respect towards each other. In traditional Muslim countries, the men also cover their hair (with a hat of some sort) and wear long, loose, full-length clothing. You can compare them here:

Men: http://flickr.com/groups/islam/pool/tags/men/page11/
Women: http://flickr.com/groups/islam/pool/tags/women/page37/

-"daughters being punished for the son's crime"
One of the most important principles in Islam is that people are responsible only for their own sins. No one can be held accountable for other people's sins. (This is a major difference from Christianity, in which sin is inherited from parent to child, and where Jesus, peace and blessings upon him, is supposedly made to pay for these sins.) The Quran explicitly condemns those who punish girls on account of their sex, and threatens punishment against those who value girls less than boys.

-"girls not being allowed to be educated"
The Quran prescribes education for women as it does for men, in explicit terms. In fact, the most famous universities in the Muslim world, such as those in Egypt and Morocco, were founded by women. Noted historian Ruth Roded recently wrote:

"‘If U.S. and European historians feel a need to reconstruct women’s history because women are invisible in the traditional sources, Islamic scholars are faced with a plethora of source material that has only begun to be studied. [ . . . ] In reading the biographies of thousands of Muslim women scholars, one is amazed at the evidence that contradicts the view of Muslim women as marginal, secluded, and restricted.’"

See this article for a really wonderful exploration of this topic, written by a Cambridge professor:
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/gender.htm

Everything I've written here is reflective of mainstream Sunni Islam, practiced by 85% of the Muslim world. Much of it also applies to the Shi'a. The proportion of extremists out there really is very small, but they get 95% of the media attention.

12-14-2007, 02:48 PM	#43
sky7i Draft Pick Join Date: Dec 2007	Greetings all, I'm an Albertan; I grew up in a farm town east of Edmonton, played hockey, went to the U of A, then to law school. I consider myself to be 100% Canadian. I'm also a Muslim. I've lived in the UK, Italy, and spent time in Pakistan. I've studied under some of the world's leading Islamic scholars in the UK while at Cambridge University. So perhaps I can bridge the cultural gap here. First of all, it's nice to see that not all of you are living up to the redneck stereotype. Some of you really are trying to take a fair look at this, and that is reassuring. I realize that "Sharia law" has become a sort of bogeyman in the western press, where the only time we hear about it is when something truly bizarre happens in its name. There are places on earth where a ized versions of the Shari'a do lead to severe injustice-- the Taliban for example, or their forebears in Saudi Arabia. The key thing to remember here is that these are exceptions, not the rule, for Shari'a. The vast majority of Muslims -- even the ones who live in these places -- look down on the extremists as backwater nuts who are totally unaware of the sophisticated, classical teachings of the Shari'a. There are many Western countries -- Haiti, Columbia, etc. -- which have very dysfunctional justice systems. This does not mean the Western legal tradition is generally corrupt; it just means that the people who are in charge of it in those countries are not properly qualified to understand, interpret, and implement it. The same thing goes for the Shari'a in parts of the Muslim world. Now, to address a couple of specific comments: Captain Crunch & Flames Addiction wrote: "It is in Sharia law that its allowed and is often lightly punished or not at all. But its one of the more horrible aspects that we've seen." "And whether or not he moved here to enjoy western freedom isn't the point. The point is that if you do not want your children to have that, then you don't move to a society that has that. And if you are born here and feel you have the right use violence to enforce a dress code, then there are other places to live. It's unacceptable here." The Shari'a certainly DOES NOT allow anyone to be killed for not wearing a hijab; there is no legally mandated punishment. One of the main purposes behind the hijab is to protect women from men, and to harm someone for not wearing it is totally antithetical to that purpose. There are very few capital punishments in the Shari'a; and those are reserved for severe cases like murder. This is no different than if a Western man had killed his daughter for wearing a mini-skirt out in public-- the dress code is higher, but the real problem is not the dress code, it is that a man is overly controlling of his daughter. There are PLENTY of men like this in our Western culture; in law school we studied many chilling cases of domestic abuse and murder that happened right here in Alberta. It happens all the time here, so regularly that the media doesn't bother on reporting on it unless it's a case with special factors like this case with its supposedly religious angle. Note that here in Alberta, 38,000 (yes, 38,000) women needed shelter last year, and 25,000 were turned away: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/edmonton/st...-shelters.html I assure you that the vast majority of these women are not Muslim, and that our society isn't really any better when it comes to their treatment. We are very selective in what we notice. Secondly, the shari'a does not authorize anyone to take "justice" into their own hands. The father has a sacred duty to protect his child. This father who allegedly killed his daughter would be found guilty of murder in a properly functioning shari'a court. For a Muslim scholar's view on "honour killings", read http://www.newislamicdirections.com/...lings_revised/ Thirdly, it is not about "moving here to to enjoy Western freedoms". If you wander around Karachi or Lahore, you will find plenty of women who don't wear the hijab. Trust me, people there can be as narcissistic there as they are here. Thor/Ford Prefect But.... Islam is well known in its attitudes towards women, how they are treated quite badly in comparison to our western values. Separated from men at mosques, made to cover up to stop Muslim men from getting dirty thoughts, daughters being punished for the son's crime, gang rape punishments, girls not being allowed to be educated, etc.. Many people do carry stereotypes about Islam's treatment of women, but these are rooted more in myth and cultural misunderstanding than in fact. Each year, thousands of Western people convert to Islam, and the vast majority of these (by a 4-to-1 margin) are women. That would not be the case if Islam was inherently anti-women. Many Muslim saints write about God as a women, their divine Beloved; there is a strong feminine aspect to it. To answer your specific complaints: -Men and women pray separately at mosques, but this has nothing to do with male superiority. When we pray, we pray shoulder to shoulder and we bend over several times-- it's quite intimate. Most men, Western or Eastern, would be somewhat distracted from their prayers with a shapely rear-end just a few inches from their noses, and most women (Western or Eastern) would be uncomfortable with that too. Women generally prefer having a space to themselves. The general rule in most mosques is that women can enter the men's area, but men cannot enter the women's area. -As for the hijab itself, it is not simply to 'prevent men from getting dirty thoughts'. Nothing can prevent that... men think about sex all the time, even hockey players. Both men and women are expected to dress modestly in order to faciliate a climate of respect towards each other. In traditional Muslim countries, the men also cover their hair (with a hat of some sort) and wear long, loose, full-length clothing. You can compare them here: Men: http://flickr.com/groups/islam/pool/tags/men/page11/ Women: http://flickr.com/groups/islam/pool/tags/women/page37/ -"daughters being punished for the son's crime" One of the most important principles in Islam is that people are responsible only for their own sins. No one can be held accountable for other people's sins. (This is a major difference from Christianity, in which sin is inherited from parent to child, and where Jesus, peace and blessings upon him, is supposedly made to pay for these sins.) The Quran explicitly condemns those who punish girls on account of their sex, and threatens punishment against those who value girls less than boys. -"girls not being allowed to be educated" The Quran prescribes education for women as it does for men, in explicit terms. In fact, the most famous universities in the Muslim world, such as those in Egypt and Morocco, were founded by women. Noted historian Ruth Roded recently wrote: "‘If U.S. and European historians feel a need to reconstruct women’s history because women are invisible in the traditional sources, Islamic scholars are faced with a plethora of source material that has only begun to be studied. [ . . . ] In reading the biographies of thousands of Muslim women scholars, one is amazed at the evidence that contradicts the view of Muslim women as marginal, secluded, and restricted.’" See this article for a really wonderful exploration of this topic, written by a Cambridge professor: http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/gender.htm Everything I've written here is reflective of mainstream Sunni Islam, practiced by 85% of the Muslim world. Much of it also applies to the Shi'a. The proportion of extremists out there really is very small, but they get 95% of the media attention.