[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

This is the idea that I was talking about.

Most of the signatories to the Declaration of Independence were not Christians. Not even close. I covered this in the posts above, but I'll stress it again. The U.S. was pretty much founded on secular humanist principles.

But even if they had been, your claim wouldn't follow--and this is where I suspect Dis and I are not that far apart. Christians can hold enlightenment principles. Enlightenment thinkers can be Christians. But to say that Jefferson was a "religious man" or that Franklin was a "Christian" is to use definitions of those terms that I for one don't recognize.

Dis: I can see what your point is re: the term "Christian principles," but I think that we may be quibbling a little over how the term is used. For me, part of the value of the real foundational principles of the U.S. is their roots in enlightenment thought. To me, describing them as "Christian" gives the false impression that somehow these beliefs derived from Christianity when in fact they were basically secular beliefs. I agree that Pat Robertson is a loon--but I think the perpetuation of the notion of the founding fathers as Christians is potentially damaging to the political conversation, because it runs the risk of justifying the agenda of theocracy that Robertson and the Christian right fairly explicitly state as their goal. One of "his ilk" in my opinion is the born-again George W. Bush, whose apocalyptic view of the intersection between religion and politics is well known.

That's not to minimize the role of Christianity in U.S. history: as I've said before, the U.S. was founded by secular humanists, but slavery was more or less ended by evangelical Christians, to give just one example.

Great post, and agree withe everything.

I think we have to be careful about labeling people who answer a question differently than we might. Their reason for answering might not be what is generally assumed.
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It's also why I don't trust polls. Questions are often designed to obtain a more desirable answer.