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Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor
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Wow, this solves everything. Since you like this link so much you should send it to the Vancouver RCMP so that they won't need to investigate. Case closed!
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Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor
In law, everyone is equal before the law.
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Is this remark supposed to make some sort of point, or rebut what I said in any way? Because it really seems to contribute nothing whatsoever.
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Originally Posted by Dan02
Yet everytime there is a problem with the taser it gets reported in the news and the same people every time regardless of the circumstances come out and say it was inappropriate use of force because the guy died. Get it through your thick heads that the result of the use of the taser has all to do with whether it was used properly/appropriately.
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Well, I don't know if you are referring to me, but I haven't said it was inappropriate use of force. I have said all along that it MIGHT have been. Seems there are a lot of people here however that think it is pretty cut-and-dried that there was no inappropriate use of force, because the police can never do anything wrong and this guy deserved everything he got. Thanks for the thick head comment, btw, adds a lot of value to the discussion.
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Originally Posted by Bent Wookie
Anyway, I won't bother to address all the posts since coming back but I will try to educate.
Tasers are an authorized NON-LETHAL use of force option. Generally, they can be deployed in 2 different fashions- 1) Direction application on the taser itself to the subject 2) Actually firing the taser probes from a distance into the subject.
The first method is simply an attempt to gain compliance through pain. The second method uses both pain compliance and a disruption of the nervous system as 50K volt are arched between the 2 probes. With the first method, the majority of subjects react strongly and either comply or get angrier. The 2nd method, if deployed correctly, causes subjects to 'tense' up and have really no other reaction. Some get the wind knocked out them, others yell, etc etc.
Although I am not clear on all services use of force models, deployment using each method is on different levels. The first method is generally used to gain compliance from people actively resisting arrest, the 2nd method is used on subjects that are generally assaultive. Again, vancouver could be different.
Generally, the taser cycles for 5 seconds with one trigger pull. This can be made longer or shorter by holding down the trigger. I would assume most forces have strict restrictions for the maximum allow time a subject can be tased in addition to the number of cycles. Keep in mind that after the subject is tased, actual physical control must be taken by officers as the subject has no lingering effects such as with deployment of OC spray. There has been incidences where individuals have pulled the leads from the probes AFTER be tased and the police are back to square one.
There have been many instances of subjects dying from taser deployment. But in the vast majority, there were several factors (drug abuse, etc) that were the major contributors to the subjects death.
The bottom line, tasers are an authorized non-lethal use of force option for police. As are pepper spray, physical control, handcuffs and batons. All can cause death if their are preexisting conditions that police simply aren't aware of.
And yes, an investigation must be completed to determine the cause of death (mandatory in police custody deaths) and the appropriate level of force.
From my stand point, and what irks me, is the general lack of understanding of police procedure, training and law that causes threads like this is spiral into police brutality threads. I make attempts to educate and it is either ignored or somehow used to further the agenda- the post about section 26 is a good example (right now icarus is typing- 'who said I had an agenda?' -sigh, which again, isn't the point).
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To an extent, but without any attempt to educate yourself on the subject, one just ends up looking like an idiot in the eyes of people that have a background and/or knowledge on the subject.
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Well we agree there. My point is that the people that question police and police tactics must first make attempts to understand police tactics/training, the weapons they carry and the psychology behind the use of force. There are some great reads for anyone interested including any by Dave Grossman- 'On Killing' and 'On Combat'. As I stated, without any background knowledge, people attacking police simply b/c of the job they do and an unintended 'outcome' certainly shows a certain amount of bias.
How exactly have you educated yourself? Wikipedia?? RIIGHT.
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What a great educator you are, Socrates reincarnate.
Unfortunately, despite all your pedagogic prowess you seem to have lost grip on the actual discussion. This is not a police brutality thread. Some of us have discussed the possibility that the reasonable use of force may have been exceeded, subject to the evidence and findings of an investigation. Others seem content to conclude that the police did no wrong, without having all the evidence or investigation results. There are a lot of people who seem to think the police are infallible, that there is no need to inquire about their actions, and that anyone who dares question their actions is anti-cop. The detailed taser description was fascinating, but really has little to do with the matter of whether the cops in this particular instance did right or wrong.
By the way, how did I use section 26 to further an agenda? O great Prometheus who brought the Criminal Code to us mere mortals, since we missed your point about bringing up this section, please tell us what your intentions were!
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Originally Posted by MelBridgeman
Also to the anti-cop movement in this thread, i admire your buttercup and candy cane approach you feel police should take, but i can conclude that non of you have been a cop, been put in to situations that may be life threatening to you and others and tried to deal with it...
Personal responsibility has been thrown out the window in todays liberalization of society...you dont want to get tasered...dont cause a freaking scene in a freaking airport...
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Do you consider me to be part of this 'anti-cop movement' you describe? Can I consider you to be part of an 'anti-free-thought movement'? Since you think cops can do no wrong and their actions should be free from censure maybe you would prefer life in a police state like Burma or North Korea? I for one like living in a country where we have Charter-protected rights and values, where there exists the Rule of Law, and where authority is capable of being freely questioned.