Mike Babcock is the worst International Coach Calgary bar has ever seen

[amorak]

I was at St. James Pub and the whole place was up in arms - Brodeur should have been pulled after his terrible second goal, yet Babcock stubbornly stayed with him, Costing Canada the game...


Nevermind that he has completely misused Iginla, keeping him off the first line that has dominated with him on it.

I have never heard an entire bar so frustrated. This is a group of 200+ that I am sure varies from occasional hockey voyeur to hardcore CP'er (:bag:).

Everyone thought Babcock was outcoached, and outcoached hard. I would almost say "bring down Hitchcock and kick Babcock out". This has been the most embarrassing 'out-coaching' I have ever seen. Babcock is outcoached and outgunned and is going to go down as the worst coach on international play in Canadian history.


/rant

[flip]

I think there might already be a thread for this...

And why the hell are people still complaining about Iggy? He played like half the game with Sid and Nash and after his performance in the last 2 minutes should get to stick with them.

[Jesse834]

...

[zunie75]

Absolutly. Its to bad we didnt have a time out. That last 2 minute shift with Crosby, Iginla and Nash dominated. Of course they got tired, and the second came out. Imagine if we had a time out, could have called it and rested up our first line and kept them out there.

[Smell My Finger]

Babcock is a cockroach!

[kirant]

This is an honest question now: Babcock or Sutter for Team Canada?

[Heavy Jack]

http://www.erdtshare.org/scrapbook/Pics/Marcin%20bobbing%20for%20apples.jpg

[flip]

This is an honest question now: Babcock or Sutter for Team Canada?

Based on what Sutter has done with our line up this season?

Hitchcock, Ruff, Quenville would all be at or before Sutter IMO.

[TheSutterDynasty]

Coaching is one of those things that fans can't see possibly enough of in order to objectively evaluate.

All you see is the line combinations and the final score.

This board is filled with perpetual whiners. Everyone is just looking for someone to blame.

[Resolute 14]

I was at St. James Pub and the whole place was up in arms - Brodeur should have been pulled after his terrible second goal, yet Babcock stubbornly stayed with him, Costing Canada the game...

You simply do not pull a goalie like Brodeur over one mistake.

That is about the single dumbest thing a coach could do.

[flip]

You simply do not pull a goalie like Brodeur over one mistake.

That is about the single dumbest thing a coach could do.

Maybe not during the game but it was a travesty that he started the 2nd period.

[looooob]

Based on what Sutter has done with our line up this season?

Hitchcock, Ruff, Quenville would all be at or before Sutter IMO. from what I recall on the documentary, rightly or wrongly Sutter was their 2nd choice

Hitch of course has been fired this season so he's not having the greatest year

[Resolute 14]

Maybe not during the game but it was a travesty that he started the 2nd period.

No, it really wasn't. It was a terrible goal, but it also isn't like Brodeur is McElhinney. In that situation, every coach on the face of the planet would have faith that the greatest goalie of all time would rebound.

It's easy to whine about it after the fact, however.

[flip]

from what I recall on the documentary, rightly or wrongly Sutter was their 2nd choice

Hitch of course has been fired this season so he's not having the greatest year


I knew that but I don't necessarily agree with Stevie Y. Although he is my idol.::)

[jschick88]

Even hockey critics are saying that Wilson outcoached Babcock.

From Stan Fischler:

The most overlooked aspect of Uncle Sam's win on Sunday was the fact that Ron Wilson, plain and simple, outcoached Mike Babcock.

[Resolute 14]

Well that's hardly surprising given the Swiss coach outdueled Babcock as well.

[minnow]

I don't care how much experience you have coaching, you should have eyes and common sense enough to know that iggy should be on the first line permanently, not play musical chairs with his spot on that line, Brodeur looked shaky during the last game (minus the shootout, but during the game!) look at the sj line, come on, it's pathetic under pressure, and we should have had a "timely" time out. You don't have to be a fantastic coach to see simple things, especially when your plan isn't working.

[zamler]

A drunk monkey could out coach Babcock right now.

[Erick Estrada]

May as well say Canada has been out-GM'ed. Some questionable picks haven't paid off.

[minnow]

Maybe he just doesn't know these players as well as he thinks he does? Maybe he's relying on reputation instead of reality? But, he should know things like SJ Joe disappears in the playoffs every year.

[Stanley]

May as well say Canada has been out-GM'ed. Some questionable picks haven't paid off.

I just choked on my rum reading this post....hehe...

[minnow]

Love this quote from Bubcock tonight: "Good thing I have two days to figure all that out".

[Erick Estrada]

Love this quote from Bubcock tonight: "Good thing I have two days to figure all that out".

That would be nice. His coaching on the fly act hasn't helped the team at all.

[zamler]

What exactly does Babcock need to "figure out"? Does he need an epiphany that he's not a god among men and his NHL style coaching methods are useless in the Olympics? Does he need to "figure out" that he has a hard on for certain players and puts them out there, damn the torpedoes?

[Stocky]

Looks like Babcock needs a full training camp to evaluate players, and a 1/2 doz games to find players who have chemistry with each other, because he he certainly shouldn't be experimenting with 1/2 of his line combos at this stage of the game. This tourney is way too short.

He isn't even giving the players any time to develop chemistry; if it isn't there right away he changes it up. Pick someone and go with them. Only one more loss and we are out.

[zunie75]

This is an honest question now: Babcock or Sutter for Team Canada?


I dont think Sutter would be the answer for this team. We have seen that he jugles lines just like Babcock, and hes a very set in his way type of coach.

I think better choices would have been joel quenneville, bruce boudreau. If not as head coaches, at least as assitants. Whats Hitchcock doing there anyway?

Let just be thankful that the Russians won today. At least we get a match with Germany instead of them for now.

[zunie75]

What exactly does Babcock need to "figure out"? Does he need an epiphany that he's not a god among men and his NHL style coaching methods are useless in the Olympics? Does he need to "figure out" that he has a hard on for certain players and puts them out there, damn the torpedoes?

No doubt. Whats he going to figure out in a day and a half that he couldnt in the three days leading up to the USA game? Clearly, if he had reviewed the first two game tapes he should have seen what most of us had figured out in period 2 of the Norway game.

[Iggy Snipe]

All i know is Babcock had reason to remove Iggy off that top line in the first place. His numbers going into the tourny were comparable to Nash, Getzlaf, and Iggy has played great every second he has got. He gets 3 goals in Gm#1, where he still was short shifted, and then gets no Ice in game #2 or 3 until Babcock panics and throws Iggy out with Nash and Crosby again. What a joke, he never had a reason to take him off that line. He just does not like Iginla and would rather win without him playing if he could, but when it comes down to it, Canada needs Iginla whether Babcack thinks he does or not. When it comes down to Babcock losing his job, he will play Iginla. Iginla could have been the difference. He DOES have chemistry with Crosby, and pure goal scorer would.

[browna]

May as well say Canada has been out-GM'ed. Some questionable picks haven't paid off.

Yeah. Seabrook playing with Keith is usually a sideshow, at least tonight...and when those guys don't play together, which had to happen when Seabrook struggled, Seabrook looks like Pardy and Keith looks like Sarich.

No way, now how can you tell me that Bouwmeester could do any worse then 3 or 4 of those guys out there.

There was one and a half forward lines tonight, until going down 4-2, then Iginla got back, and then there was two forward lines with 5 mins to go.

[valo403]

Yeah. Seabrook playing with Keith is usually a sideshow, at least tonight...and when those guys don't play together, which had to happen when Seabrook struggled, Seabrook looks like Pardy and Keith looks like Sarich.

No way, now how can you tell me that Bouwmeester could do any worse then 3 or 4 of those guys out there.

There was one and a half forward lines tonight, until going down 4-2, then Iginla got back, and then there was two forward lines with 5 mins to go.

I don't know how you could have seen that coming though, those two are the best D-pairing in the NHL right now, their lack of performance at the Olympics is pretty shocking actually.

[Ark2]

I really hope that we are done juggling lines from here on out. There were three variations of the top line tonight. I don't care who you are or what you have won, that is not a smart move for any coach to make. Iginla-Crosby-Nash may not be the best combo, but out of the four combinations that we have seen, it has easily looked the best and no one can argue this.

I also hope that we done with carrying 13 forwards and 7 defensemen. All it does is throw things out of sync. Identify the players that you don't need (Perry and Seabrook) and let them watch from the pressbox.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Babcock needs to figure this out in 2 days?

Is it anything like the way he "figured" things out after the game with switzerland?

[Ark2]

Babcock needs to figure this out in 2 days?

Is it anything like the way he "figured" things out after the game with switzerland?

Yeah, he said the same thing after that game, didn't he. LOL

[liamenator]

I don't know how you could have seen that coming though, those two are the best D-pairing in the NHL right now, their lack of performance at the Olympics is pretty shocking actually.

A lot of us saw it coming, based on the fact that Seabrook is the single most overrated D-man in the league right now.

[valo403]

A lot of us saw it coming, based on the fact that Seabrook is the single most overrated D-man in the league right now.

Huh? It's pretty much universally recognized that the Seabrook-Keith pairing has been the best in the league for at least the last year. They play against the top unit every night and are incredibly effective in shutting them down. There was no reason to think they wouldn't do the same thing at the Olympics.

[Sly]

All i know is Babcock had reason to remove Iggy off that top line in the first place. His numbers going into the tourny were comparable to Nash, Getzlaf, and Iggy has played great every second he has got. He gets 3 goals in Gm#1, where he still was short shifted, and then gets no Ice in game #2 or 3 until Babcock panics and throws Iggy out with Nash and Crosby again. What a joke, he never had a reason to take him off that line. He just does not like Iginla and would rather win without him playing if he could, but when it comes down to it, Canada needs Iginla whether Babcack thinks he does or not. When it comes down to Babcock losing his job, he will play Iginla. Iginla could have been the difference. He DOES have chemistry with Crosby, and pure goal scorer would.

Exactly how I feel.

[Sly]

Huh? It's pretty much universally recognized that the Seabrook-Keith pairing has been the best in the league for at least the last year. They play against the top unit every night and are incredibly effective in shutting them down. There was no reason to think they wouldn't do the same thing at the Olympics.

Keith makes Seabrook. Seabrook does not make Keith.

[valo403]

Keith makes Seabrook. Seabrook does not make Keith.

Fair enough, but they've both been bad either together or individually.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

I think Canada looked great tonight. They completely dominated the U.S. who were back on their heels for a good portion of the game. Brodeur wasn't sharp but hey, it happens. Probably a good thing since Luongo is likely the better choice in net moving forward. Better to figure that out now than in the quarterfinals.

The team really seems to be finding its stride. My only concern is, will playing a team like Germany make them lose that edge? It really would be better if they just had Russia on tap Wednesday. The one benefit is it gets Luongo some action before the quarters.

[liamenator]

Fair enough, but they've both been bad either together or individually.

This is true, and I agree with you that Keith's struggles have been surprising.

But I think the only reason that they're 'universally acknowledged' as the 'best' D pairing in the league is because the hype-machine has billed them as such. And I'm of the view that Seabrook has managed to ride Keith's coattails all the way to the Olympic Games. He's far and away the worst pick Yzerman made IMO (regardless of whether or not Bouwmeester was next in line).

[burning_acid1]

You simply do not pull a goalie like Brodeur over one mistake.

That is about the single dumbest thing a coach could do.

There was definitely more than one mistake. He made multiple mistakes, many of which cost Canada goals against them.

[Resolute 14]

I don't know how you could have seen that coming though, those two are the best D-pairing in the NHL right now, their lack of performance at the Olympics is pretty shocking actually.

A lot of people saw that coming though. Not so much Keith struggling as he has at times, but everyone knew Seabrook was going only because Keith has carried his jock for a couple years now.

Klown took Seabrook because of "chemistry", but Babcock simply can't rely on Seabrook to do anything but open the gate at the bench. Add in the fact that Niedermayer has been declining for some time now, and Doughty is basically a rookie, and the management team handicapped our defence right from the start.

[Resolute 14]

There was definitely more than one mistake. He made multiple mistakes, many of which cost Canada goals against them.

On the whole, I agree. But after the first, it was only that one mistake. If he had given up that third goal before the end of the first period (even accounting for the fact he was bumped), then I could see it.

But any coach would expect any world class goalie can rebound, and would give that goalie the chance. The arguments that Brodeur should have been pulled after the first is based entirely on hindsight, which the team does not have the benefit of during the game.

[edn88]

The Olympics is a short tournament with no room for error. After the second week goal you have to pull Brodeur and put in Luongo (no goals against). If that does not work, hello Mr. Fleury against the Germans. If one of those three guys does not step up and play like an Olympian - then we are pretty much *****d.

Easy to be a Monday morning coach, but Babcock just got outcoached by Ron Wilson.

[Huntsy]

Old Boys club has failed Canada again. When Kevin Lowe is part of player selection then you know your in trouble.

Still say the Pronger Needs experiment is the biggest screw up. Like the forwards other than Throrton and Marleau. I say put Heatley with some other line and sit other two. All I know is I would not bet money on San Jose in playoffs again this year. What a joke Throton is. He has no heart and Canada thing just does not register with him.

[AltaGuy]

A lot of people saw that coming though. Not so much Keith struggling as he has at times, but everyone knew Seabrook was going only because Keith has carried his jock for a couple years now.

Klown took Seabrook because of "chemistry", but Babcock simply can't rely on Seabrook to do anything but open the gate at the bench. Add in the fact that Niedermayer has been declining for some time now, and Doughty is basically a rookie, and the management team handicapped our defence right from the start.

I don't really agree with this. To me, it was stupid of Babcock to stop playing those two together. Seabrook would have made every other team in this tournament with ease, and some of the other team's defences have looked really good even with guys like Marcus Johansson.

I have no problem with the choices, but rather with the way Babcock keeps shuffling players around like a mad scientist rather than encouraging the team to gel as a cohesive group.

To me, it's like two different ideas are at play: the choices for the team made on existing chemistry, proven results, and then the coaching that is all over the map.

[questionmotives]

Might as well ask the question of why guys like Morrow and Bergeron are on the team as well.

I have seen Morrow throw a couple of hits, but doesn't create anything else. Bergeron still boggles me as he has done little to nothing since the tournament began.

[REDVAN]

Playing the wrong goalie... sorry to Brodeur who is the best of all time stats-wise, and even though he is great, he might not be the best we have available. LOUUU. End of discussion. I have more faith in Luongo than Brodeur.

Riding the SJS line during the SUI game. They weren't getting the job done, and by the time Babcock put the "grinders" on the ice, it was too late for anything to actually happen.

Neidermayer and Pronger, and Doughty for that matter- being on the team itself is disgusting. I'd rather have J-Bouw, and Phaneuf over those guys. Yes I know Neids is the captain, and Pronger is a tough SOB to play against. But really? Not this tournament.

On that note, who is leading this team? I know it's hard to have a leader when everyone is a leader on their other teams... but this team lacks a leader. Neids is not the kind of leader this team needs. Need more than Neids, ha! I don't think Iggy could do it either, and Pronger wearing the A makes me barf in my mouth. Crosby, frankly, should be the captain, and he needs to get his ass in gear to prove it for the next Olympics.

Thonton- what a floater. I know he has the most assists in the league, but why? I don't understand how he gets the job done- I only see a big man getting knocked off the puck, not playing physical, and passing passing passing. PP needs to shoot sometime, and that won't happen with SJS guys on the ice.

Babcock has turned this Canadian team into a one-trick pony. Yzerman left a few notable guys off the team that should be there IMO (Richards, no. Lecavalier or Stamkos yes).

Anyway, that's enough ranting about something that isn't even that important. Go Canada, but I won't be surprised if we don't win against Russia.

[zunie75]

I get that Broduer didnt play well. Thats clear, he would be the first to admit it. But how do you pull him if your Babcock? You would be pulling the greatest goalie of all time.

So im sure they figured he would regain his usual brilliant play. Sadly it did not happen. Now mabye Luongo wouldnt have let in the particular goals that Marty did, but whos to say he wouldnt have let in different ones? Afterall what has Luongo done in his career to suggest that he is a better goalie than Broduer or Fleury? Which big games has "Lou" won?

I honestly think that Marc Andre Fleury would be a more efficent answer than Luongo. Fleury has played in big games with meaning and has come out a champion. Luongo has not. A shut out against Norway is hardly the telling factor of goaltending ability.

[Stormy Lancer]

Well in response to the title of this thread...Mark Crawford???

[Vinny01]

Old Boys club has failed Canada again. When Kevin Lowe is part of player selection then you know your in trouble.

Still say the Pronger Needs experiment is the biggest screw up. Like the forwards other than Throrton and Marleau. I say put Heatley with some other line and sit other two. All I know is I would not bet money on San Jose in playoffs again this year. What a joke Throton is. He has no heart and Canada thing just does not register with him.


My thoughts exactly. How can you put probably the wrost man at building a team in the last 5 years in charge of something like this? Canada should have taken the GM's of the 4 teams that have made the playoffs the past 5 years (CGY, NJ, DET, SJ) to build this team.

Holland makes sense to be up there with Stevie. Hitchcock and Lowe? uhhhh no

[flamefan19]

Afterall what has Luongo done in his career to suggest that he is a better goalie than Broduer or Fleury? Which big games has "Lou" won?

I'm not the biggest Luongo fan, but he was great in the 04 World Cup semi finals against the Czechs. And his 07 series against the Stars, especially game 7, was very good. The fact is, any competent butterfly goalie would have stopped at least 3 of the goals against the US. Brodeur was being beat down low and was flopping around on most of those goals. I'd take Brodeur over Luongo in most cases, but you can't sit and hope that Marty can get out of this funk when you're in an elimination round.

[opendoor]

I get that Broduer didnt play well. Thats clear, he would be the first to admit it. But how do you pull him if your Babcock? You would be pulling the greatest goalie of all time.

So im sure they figured he would regain his usual brilliant play. Sadly it did not happen. Now mabye Luongo wouldnt have let in the particular goals that Marty did, but whos to say he wouldnt have let in different ones? Afterall what has Luongo done in his career to suggest that he is a better goalie than Broduer or Fleury? Which big games has "Lou" won?

I honestly think that Marc Andre Fleury would be a more efficent answer than Luongo. Fleury has played in big games with meaning and has come out a champion. Luongo has not. A shut out against Norway is hardly the telling factor of goaltending ability.

Luongo has proven to be one of the most consistent and reliable goaltenders over the last decade and has continued that this year. Brodeur was that, but he's had problems this year and Fleury has been pretty awful.

This whole "big game" theory is a bunch of hogwash. This is a short tournament and you need the guy who is playing best right now and that is clearly Luongo. Had Lundqvist and Nittymaki won "big games" before 2006? No, but they were fighting it out for the gold medal. In fact, how many goalies in the tournament have met your standard?

Other than Fleury, not one cup finalist since the lockout is in the tournament. I guess someone better tell the US that Miller's not clutch enough; Russia better get rid of Nabokov and Bryzgalov, they've never won the big games; Henrik Lundqvist, sorry hasn't been clutch enough; Vokoun hasn't either.



Also, just to put Fleury's clutch goaltending in perspective, here are the playoff stats of the last several cup winners in the year they won the cup:


Roy: GAA: 1.70, SV% .934

Hasek: GAA: 1.86, SV%: .920

Brodeur: GAA: 1.65, SV%: .934

Khabibulin: GAA: 1.71, SV%: .933

Ward: GAA: 2.14, SV%: .920

Giguere: GAA: 1.97, SV%: .922

Osgood: GAA: 1.55, SV%: .930

Fleury: GAA: 2.61, SV%: .908


Hmmm, one of those isn't like the others.

[OzSome]

You simply do not pull a goalie like Brodeur over one mistake.

That is about the single dumbest thing a coach could do.

I agree!! Canadians are only down by 1 after the 2nd period so it doesn't make sense to pull a goalie like Brodeur off. It's so easy to say he could have been pulled after the game but during the game I think it was the right call. You don't pull a goalie after the 2nd goal no matter how bad it looks especially when the game is only 2-1 at that time.

[opendoor]

I agree!! Canadians are only down by 1 after the 2nd period so it doesn't make sense to pull a goalie like Brodeur off. It's so easy to say he could have been pulled after the game but during the game I think it was the right call. You don't pull a goalie after the 2nd goal no matter how bad it looks especially when the game is only 2-1 at that time.

Especially in a non elimination game. Brodeur earned the right to be given his shot to play the whole game and turn it around.

Still, he didn't play well and I'm not surprised that they're likely going with Luongo against Germany.

[united]

Fleury has played in big games with meaning and has come out a champion.
aJmhM0pvpOo

[shadetree]

I'm not sure why people are criticizing Doughty. Other than one glaring mistake against the Swiss, he's been better than Pronger, Niedermayer, Seabrook and Boyle.

He hasn't been spectacular, but he's been really solid, and he's played well in all situations.

[afc wimbledon]

I feel for the Canadian Olympic management, leave anybody out and you get pilloried, but the team that wins needs to be a balance of stars and journeymen to feed them.
They have the same problem Canadian NHL teams suffer from, the fear of losing overwhelms everything else.

[Stocky]

I'm not sure why people are criticizing Doughty. Other than one glaring mistake against the Swiss, he's been better than Pronger, Niedermayer, Seabrook and Boyle.

He hasn't been spectacular, but he's been really solid, and he's played well in all situations.

I agree. I wasn't too happy when he wwas selected initially, but for a kid I think has has aquitted himself well so far, and has done something none of the others have seemed to: improve as the tourney has progressed.

I think they should take a page from the WJCs and always bring a young up and coming player to help them get their feet wet. Stamkos up front and Doughty on d seems reasonable. Ditto MA Fleury.

I was always nervous with Kevin Lowe at the helm. He has proven he is absolutely no talent for player performance, as evidenced by the contracts he has handed out.

[ah123]

On that note, who is leading this team? I know it's hard to have a leader when everyone is a leader on their other teams... but this team lacks a leader. Neids is not the kind of leader this team needs. Need more than Neids, ha! I don't think Iggy could do it either, and Pronger wearing the A makes me barf in my mouth. Crosby, frankly, should be the captain, and he needs to get his ass in gear to prove it for the next Olympics.


I think Yzerman, Babcock et al want Crosby to be the leader, but he has not been able to take that role on. My guess is that the "old guard" is hesitant to take charge, since everyone wants Crosby to be the leader...

[Vinny01]

I think Yzerman, Babcock et al want Crosby to be the leader, but he has not been able to take that role on. My guess is that the "old guard" is hesitant to take charge, since everyone wants Crosby to be the leader...


If they really wanted Crosby to be the leader they should have given him the C. This is Neids team to lead with Crosby, Iginla, Pronger all taking roles in the leadership. Neidermeyer might take some of the heat since he has played horribly all season and in the tourny.

Yzerman's first gig as a GM is not going so great. The team has under performed and some of his questionable choices are not panning out.

[Locke]

I think Yzerman, Babcock et al want Crosby to be the leader, but he has not been able to take that role on. My guess is that the "old guard" is hesitant to take charge, since everyone wants Crosby to be the leader...

To be fair, I dont think anyone has been able to take charge because they're getting ridiculously little ice time.

Babcock has to pull his head out of his ass and run this like an NHL team and not an All-Star team. First line gets the lion's share of ice time, 20-25 minutes, second line gets between 16-20, third line 10-13 and 4th line gets whatever is left and they like it.

No more of this ridiculous 'we're all winners today' everyone gets 12-14 minutes BS.

Seriously, give the 'Big Boys' (Iggy-Crosby-Nash) some goddamn serious ice time and they WILL carry this team on their backs, but no one can do anything with half of the required ice time.

As much as I criticized some selections this is a team with talent, but its being brutally mismanaged.

[Textcritic]

...who is leading this team? I know it's hard to have a leader when everyone is a leader on their other teams... but this team lacks a leader. Neids is not the kind of leader this team needs. Need more than Neids, ha! I don't think Iggy could do it either, and Pronger wearing the A makes me barf in my mouth. Crosby, frankly, should be the captain, and he needs to get his ass in gear to prove it for the next Olympics...

I think Yzerman, Babcock et al want Crosby to be the leader, but he has not been able to take that role on. My guess is that the "old guard" is hesitant to take charge, since everyone wants Crosby to be the leader...
Perhaps there is something to this, but let us also not kid ourselves when discussing the leadership of the current group, especially when compared to the 2002 Gold Medal team. Sidney Crosby IS NOT—and will probably never be Mario Lemieux; hell, the alternates for that team were Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic! Leadership is a problem, and given the void that was left by that team, perhaps we should not at all be surprised.

[Resolute 14]

Crosby is trying, there is no doubt about that. I think he has been the most noticeable player on the team. His effectiveness has been limited by the rotating door on one wing, and Nash playing like a boat anchor on the other. Interestingly, while everyone talks about how they need a right winger to play with Crosby, it is, I think, actually someone to play with Nash that is needed. Nash has been useless for most of the tournament, except when he was playing with Iginla. Crosby is good enough that he will fit in well with anyone, but the ability of Nash and Iginla to work together has made the entire line better in a way that nobody else has managed.

[REDVAN]

Perhaps there is something to this, but let us also not kid ourselves when discussing the leadership of the current group, especially when compared to the 2002 Gold Medal team. Sidney Crosby IS NOT—and will probably never be Mario Lemieux; hell, the alternates for that team were Steve Yzerman and Joe Sakic! Leadership is a problem, and given the void that was left by that team, perhaps we should not at all be surprised.

Crosby is trying, there is no doubt about that. I think he has been the most noticeable player on the team. His effectiveness has been limited by the rotating door on one wing, and Nash playing like a boat anchor on the other. Interestingly, while everyone talks about how they need a right winger to play with Crosby, it is, I think, actually someone to play with Nash that is needed. Nash has been useless for most of the tournament, except when he was playing with Iginla. Crosby is good enough that he will fit in well with anyone, but the ability of Nash and Iginla to work together has made the entire line better in a way that nobody else has managed.

So maybe it's Nash that needs off that first line... interesting point. Bob MacKenzie, with his Nash hard-on would disagree with you. Because Nash and Crosby have soooo much more chemistry than Iginla-Crosby (source: twittah).

Crosby is the best player on the team, and he is trying. Good for him. How much ice does he get? Whatever he gets he should get more.

And as for Lemiuex... every knows Lemieux is the man. When Lemiuex is on the ice, he IS the team. Niedermayer is just not that player. Iginla isn't either... I was against naming Crosby captain, but I think it should have happened now. Iginla has been marginalized by Babcock every time he does anything good. Bitter for Iggy being awesome or what? Pronger is no captain, it disgusts me he wears an A. When you have a team of leaders, you need someone who everyone else respects to lead them- Nieds probably lost respect among players when he pulled his "I don't know if I want to play" stunt. That would bug me if I was playing with him after. If he has a questionable drive and motivation, how can he lead the others to victory?

It's totally different to lead an all-star team like this. When each player is a leader of their own team, you need to have someone special to be captain, or someone ridiculously awesome at coaching. As of right now, team Canada has niether.

[Schmidtyboosh]

Maybe he just doesn't know these players as well as he thinks he does? Maybe he's relying on reputation instead of reality? But, he should know things like SJ Joe disappears in the playoffs every year.

He had no idea how to coach top tier NORTH AMERICAN players.

[shadetree]

The thing I have noticed is that there is very little consensus on even who is playing good or bad on the the team.

Mostly consensus:
Pronger, Niedermayer, Perry, Brodeur bad
Heatley, Crosby good

Absolute zero consensus
All the other players.

How can this be?

I think part of it is that most players haven't gotten enough ice time to make a judgement. Morrow and Toews have looked good, but they're barely playing. Toews got 2 assists last night, but barely played in the third. Same deal with Seabrook - he hasn't been brutal (no worse than Pronger, IMO), but he hasn't gotten enough ice time to be impressive.

[Azure]

Considering Doughty is 20 years old, I have no problem with the way he has been playing. The sad part is that he's being relied on more than he should be because the other defensemen are playing like a bunch of morons.

Heatley, Toews, Crosby and Iginla have been the forwards that have stood out to me.

Play Heatley on the left side, Iginla on the right and get Crosby to center them. See how it goes.

[ben voyonsdonc]

Just one more over-reaction thread. Honestly, does the viewpoint of the drunken patrons of a Calgary bar really merit a thread?

Adversity might be a good thing for this team. Yes, it will be good to start Luongo from here on out but I certainly wouldn't have pulled Brodeur after a couple of goals. You need to show some confidence in one of the most decorated goalies in NHL history. Unfortunately, things didn't work out in the end but the Canadian team definitely dominated the 2nd and 3rd periods.

[AvengeR]

Which big games has "Lou" won?

I honestly think that Marc Andre Fleury would be a more efficent answer than Luongo. Fleury has played in big games with meaning and has come out a champion. Luongo has not.

I agree 100%. 7uongo hasn't won anything. Fleury has won a Stanley Cup and been to the finals two straight years.

[REDVAN]

Something everyone is missing, is that this is Vancouver. If there is ever a time where Luongo is going to be awesome, it's in front of his homecrowd... playing the next two games- if he wins- could give him the confidence needed to become that world-class winning goalie he's hyped to be.

His skills are far better than his credentials show. Maybe now's when that changes?

[sa226]

One guy who I have been quite impressed with is Toews, he has been really good, aside from scoring.

[Scooter]

The thing I have noticed is that there is very little consensus on even who is playing good or bad on the the team.

Mostly consensus:
Pronger, Niedermayer, Perry, Brodeur bad
Heatley, Crosby good

Absolute zero consensus
All the other players.

How can this be?
Cause 1/2 the *mod edit* on the forum watch nobody, but, Iggy whether he is on the ice, or riding the pine.

[Locke]

Cause 1/2 the *removed* on the forum watch nobody, but, Iggy whether he is on the ice, or riding the pine.

I dont see why that would be, clearly that useless chump shouldn't even have made the team.

Canada doesnt have players taking the game by the berries because no one has the opportunity. Team Canada management made a lot of sacrifices on the altar of chemistry, but only one line is complete so in essence it was a bit of a waste of time and perhaps erroneous logic during the decision making process.

Fact of the matter is, for the 3 of 4 hybrid lines (including the first) you cant get any chemistry if they arent out there together for any stretch of time or have only 12 minutes a game to play together.

Give the first line their spots and run em for 20+ minutes a game.

[Redliner]

One guy who I have been quite impressed with is Toews, he has been really good, aside from scoring.

And in keeping with the theme of lack of consensus, I think Toews has been terrible. Gets knocked off the puck easily and looks like he's wandering around out there with no idea what to do.

The biggest problem I see is that the team keeps trying to play Harlem Globetrotters hockey. Tons of giveaways due to them trying to force low-percentage passes, and the powerplay needs to shoot the puck. For all the talk of chemistry, the SJS line has really not delivered. I expect a win over Germany but will actually be surprised if we beat Russia.