Killer living wage - please, tax me more Calgary

[First Lady]

Killer living wages

The newest social justice fad is another sop to unions that has nothing to do with poverty

Peter Shawn Taylor, Financial Post
Published: Wednesday, November 05, 2008

If nothing else, the left has a knack for picking the perfect adjective. Consider fair trade. Who could possibly be against fairness? If you're against fair trade, it stands to reason you must be in favour of unfair trade. The same tricky modifiers are at work with universal daycare, social justice, progressive politics and the latest up-and-coming dangerous idea, the living wage.

What's the opposite of a living wage? Presumably a death wage. Although a freely-negotiated-in-the-labour-market wage would be more accurate.

Starting in Baltimore in 1994, about 140 American cities have adopted living wage policies. The argument is as follows: Minimum wage is insufficient to support a family, so cities calculate a new wage rate they figure is enough to live on -- typically 50% or more above the prescribed minimum. Since municipalities lack the legislative power to force such a wage on their entire local economy, living wage laws only apply to municipal employees, contractors doing business with the city and businesses or non-profits that receive municipal subsidies. It's a small but significant chunk of the local workforce.

But what began as a desperate and controversial move by troubled American cities to stem poverty in their blighted urban cores now appears on its way to becoming a social policy affectation for some of Canada's richest cities.

Calgary is on track to be the first. A $13.25 per hour living wage (Alberta minimum wage: $8.40) comes before city council in January or February for final approval. The Regional Municipality of Waterloo in southwestern Ontario will consider its own initial proposal for a $13.62 living wage (Ontario minimum wage: $8.75) in October. And tiny Pelham, Ont., near Niagara Falls, also has a living wage proposal before its town council. All these municipalities, it should be noted, are marked by relatively high incomes.

Continued:
http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=933685



Another fine example of where our municipal tax hike will be going.....:blink:

[burn_this_city]

I'm sorry but $8.40/hr is pathetic.. I dont agree with a living wage, but people can't live in Calgary on minimum wage.

[Phaneuf3]

I'm sorry but $8.40/hr is pathetic.. I dont agree with a living wage, but people can't live in Calgary on minimum wage.
I haven't looked recently but a year ago good luck at finding a job in calgary for minimum wage apart from maybe a couple jobs that rely heavily on tips for their income.

[ken0042]

I have to agree- I don't know of anybody who makes minimum wage and doesn't also make tips.

I also don't have an issue with minimum wage being what it is. With it being so low it gives a chance for kids to get part time jobs and learn some real world skills. I also know that because minimum wage sucks so bad, I made sure to improve my skills whenever I could so that I could get jobs that were better than minimum.

[Muta]

If wage goes up to a minimum $13.25 an hour, I will promptly be asking my employer to raise my hourly rate to match that. I am a certain % over the minimum wage (as is everybody), and my salary should reflect that... so should yours.

[DementedReality]

who is obligated to work for minimum wage? if it is not enough for you to support your family, decline the offer of employment and go find a job to pay you more.

if employers cant find employee's due to their wage policy, they will offer more.

[burn_this_city]

I have to agree- I don't know of anybody who makes minimum wage and doesn't also make tips.

I also don't have an issue with minimum wage being what it is. With it being so low it gives a chance for kids to get part time jobs and learn some real world skills. I also know that because minimum wage sucks so bad, I made sure to improve my skills whenever I could so that I could get jobs that were better than minimum.

Wal-mart shafts people with crappy wages like that and no benefits by only allowing them to work 35 hours a week.

[DementedReality]

Wal-mart shafts people with crappy wages like that and no benefits by only allowing them to work 35 hours a week.

I think we should report Wal Mart to the police. Clearly they are forcing people against their will to accept those conditions.

If it was me and benefits and more than minimum wage were important to me, I would continue my job search. No?

[Thunderball]

The market already does a good job of determining market value, and that already is in the $11-15 range, well north of the minimum wage. The higher the pay, the better qualities the applicant likely has. The lower the pay, the more likely good applicants walk away.

[Agamemnon]

If wage goes up to a minimum $13.25 an hour, I will promptly be asking my employer to raise my hourly rate to match that. I am a certain % over the minimum wage (as is everybody), and my salary should reflect that... so should yours.
Sure... though, the raise from minimum to living is to allow these people to 'live' (whether you believe they need the money or not)... that doesn't necessarily justify increases for everyone over the living wage (imo). I can definitely see this argument coming from a lot of places though.

[Agamemnon]

The market already does a good job of determining market value, and that already is in the $11-15 range, well north of the minimum wage. The higher the pay, the better qualities the applicant likely has. The lower the pay, the more likely good applicants walk away.
It's probably more of an issue in markets where the labour demand isn't as high as it is here. Not sure why Calgary would be in on this thing.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm all for them doubling the living salary for the city of Calgary workers, then they can halve the workforce. I mean how many guys do you need to lean on a shovel.

[Ozy_Flame]

I'm all for them doubling the living salary for the city of Calgary workers, then they can halve the workforce. I mean how many guys do you need to lean on a shovel.

Exception to the rule.

Most City workers are hard working individuals.

The same problems exist in the private sector as well.

[Dion]

The market already does a good job of determining market value, and that already is in the $11-15 range, well north of the minimum wage. The higher the pay, the better qualities the applicant likely has. The lower the pay, the more likely good applicants walk away.

Albertas economy is dictating that right. I live in a small town and the retail and restraunt side are have a terrible time of attracting workers. Some have had to reduce thier hours of operation due to a staff shortage and others have closed shop.

[Ozy_Flame]

The market already does a good job of determining market value, and that already is in the $11-15 range, well north of the minimum wage. The higher the pay, the better qualities the applicant likely has. The lower the pay, the more likely good applicants walk away.

Then what's the problem with implementing one? The City will only have to support those necessary to meet that range, which is a rapidly declining number of minimum-wage earners in Calgary.

[Dan02]

Exception to the rule.

Most City workers are hard working individuals.

The same problems exist in the private sector as well.

except they get fired for the most part.

[Metro Gnome]

I'm sorry but $8.40/hr is pathetic.. I dont agree with a living wage, but people can't live in Calgary on minimum wage.

Minimum wage isn't meant to be "lived on". If you are a grown adult trying to get by on $8.40/hour (or worse, trying to raise a family on it), then you've probably made some pretty bad mistakes so far.

Heck, I worked at Starbucks during my University days and managed to get myself above $10 an hour just, by, you know...not getting fired. That (admittedly unpleasant job) came with health benefits and stock options and could be capably performed by anyone with a functioning brain, two arms and a will to put up with yuppy crap for hours at a time.

[CaptainCrunch]

Exception to the rule.

Most City workers are hard working individuals.

The same problems exist in the private sector as well.

I was joking.

[Dion]

Exception to the rule.

Most City workers are hard working individuals.

The same problems exist in the private sector as well.

Except for the fact the city workers have a union that protects the lazy and makes it difficut for the employer to fire workers. Now i'm not saying all are lazy but they do exist with a union enviroment.

[Thunderball]

Exception to the rule.

Most City workers are hard working individuals.

The same problems exist in the private sector as well.

Big difference is that we don't pay the private sector... we pay the public sector.

Why shouldn't we implement one? Simply because it adds government interference into a place where the market is already in play and will cost taxpayers money when it could easily be the case that these people could find better employment elsewhere, or have no requirement for a "living wage" (like the 15-18 crowd).

I think the important thing to do is ask these questions: Why are these jobs below market wage? Who takes these jobs (ie: full-time workers or U-18 students) What are these jobs? are they overstaffed? Are there better paying sectors that require workers?

The answer to these questions will likely determine that implementing this is a waste of taxpayer money.

[ken0042]

Minimum wage isn't meant to be "lived on". If you are a grown adult trying to get by on $8.40/hour (or worse, trying to raise a family on it), then you've probably made some pretty bad mistakes so far.

While I do agree with you in principal, minimum wage can in fact be "lived on." Even in Calgary.

$8.40 X 160 hours per month is $1344. Take off tax, CPP and EI and let's say you are now down to $1000. I just looked on rentfaster.ca and found 19 shared accomodations for $500 per month or less. Add $75 for a bus pass, and $300 for food and that still leaves you with $125/month for other things.

What so many people I see doing is saying that you cannot have your own place while working on minimum wage. That may be true. And I think most of us when we look back at our working minimum wage job days, it was often the situation with room mates that made us want to improve our situations.

But you are right, it isn't supposed to be a life long career choice to work for minimum wage. It's supposed to be for students, interns, and other people looking to break into better careers. I've taken crap jobs for low pay before; in order to be able to prove myself and get the better job once I showed I was worthy.

[Cowboy89]

Then what's the problem with implementing one? The City will only have to support those necessary to meet that range, which is a rapidly declining number of minimum-wage earners in Calgary.

The problem doesn't exist when the 'living wage' floor is below or right around the wage floor dictated by current market conditions. The problem with implementing it at a time of record high real incomes is that in a future recession or a contraction in real incomes (ie very soon if not NOW) will decrease the wage floor offered by market forces and thus the 'living wage floor' will be higher and the city will either be forced to overpay to meet their labour requirements (And cheat taxpayers out of money at a time they need it more then ever) or simply hire less people and hurt employment numbers. Paying less people more will equal less work done and lower productivity than paying more people less at a time when they are willing to work for less out of economic necessity.

[kevman]

Question:

Who on the city workforce makes less than $13.25?

[Ozy_Flame]

The answer to these questions will likely determine that implementing this is a waste of taxpayer money.

I disagree. I believe a living wage policy will ultimately lead more Calgarians to less reliance on the Calgary Food Bank, the Drop-In Centre, and Brown Bagging for Calgary's Kids, The Salvation Army and other institutions as they have more financial power to escape otherwise poverty-stricken conditions.

I think it would theoretically have a positive net effect on this City.

However, that said, it would be ignorant to assume that people would spend that extra cash wisely. Not everyone is going to use a new raise to improve their living conditions on a long-term scale.

[Ozy_Flame]

The problem doesn't exist when the 'living wage' floor is below or right around the wage floor dictated by current market conditions. The problem with implementing it at a time of record high real incomes is that in a future recession or a contraction in real incomes (ie very soon if not NOW) will decrease the wage floor offered by market forces and thus the 'living wage floor' will be higher and the city will either be forced to overpay to meet their labour requirements (And cheat taxpayers out of money at a time they need it more then ever) or simply hire less people and hurt employment numbers. Paying less people more will equal less work done and lower productivity than paying more people less at a time when they are willing to work for less out of economic necessity.

That's an interesting take. Are salaries in Calgary actually getting lower even during a recession such as this? I doubt it. Perhaps there are layoffs and less pay raises, but I would love to see numbers that suggest Calgarians' salaries are contracting now, let alone in the future, especially given our phenomenal rate of growth.

That said, it makes it even more important to have a living wage increase so that people can keep up and help contribute to the city. I would say that minimum wage jobs are probably in the service and retail sectors, and if you haven't noticed yet, it's those industries in Calgary that are usually the ones in dire need of employees. Why not induct a living wage policy to help ease those numbers and improve the quality-of-living for these residents? Seems like a win-win for me.

Please keep in mind that "living wage" policy is not just for City employees; it's for employees in the private sector too.

[Phaneuf3]

While I do agree with you in principal, minimum wage can in fact be "lived on." Even in Calgary.

$8.40 X 160 hours per month is $1344. Take off tax, CPP and EI and let's say you are now down to $1000. I just looked on rentfaster.ca and found 19 shared accomodations for $500 per month or less. Add $75 for a bus pass, and $300 for food and that still leaves you with $125/month for other things.

What so many people I see doing is saying that you cannot have your own place while working on minimum wage. That may be true. And I think most of us when we look back at our working minimum wage job days, it was often the situation with room mates that made us want to improve our situations.

But you are right, it isn't supposed to be a life long career choice to work for minimum wage. It's supposed to be for students, interns, and other people looking to break into better careers. I've taken crap jobs for low pay before; in order to be able to prove myself and get the better job once I showed I was worthy.
is that..... i think it is!
personal responsibility and perseverance!


wow, you see it so rarely these days that i almost didn't recognize it anymore.

ps: you could easily eat very well on much less of a food budget.... if you know how to shop properly, cook and have some discipline/budgeting skills.

[peter12]

I disagree. I believe a living wage policy will ultimately lead more Calgarians to less reliance on the Calgary Food Bank, the Drop-In Centre, and Brown Bagging for Calgary's Kids, The Salvation Army and other institutions as they have more financial power to escape otherwise poverty-stricken conditions.

I think it would theoretically have a positive net effect on this City.

However, that said, it would be ignorant to assume that people would spend that extra cash wisely. Not everyone is going to use a new raise to improve their living conditions on a long-term scale.

But a greater reliance on government. I'd prefer the community to be helping these people, not the welfare state.

[RedHot25]

ps: you could easily eat very well on much less of a food budget.... if you know how to shop properly, cook and have some discipline/budgeting skills.

I've always wondered if this in fact the case. I.e. I think a lot of people that live on so little have very good budgeting skills. Also there a tonne of people that make gazillions and have super cruddy budgeting skills and are in miles of debt. I guess what I'm saying is that, well, I don't think you can really imply anything about someone's "budgeting skills" - there are good, bad and ugly in both rich and poor.

[Phaneuf3]

I've always wondered if this in fact the case. I.e. I think a lot of people that live on so little have very good budgeting skills. Also there a tonne of people that make gazillions and have super cruddy budgeting skills and are in miles of debt. I guess what I'm saying is that, well, I don't think you can really imply anything about someone's "budgeting skills" - there are good, bad and ugly in both rich and poor.
when it comes to a food budget, its not just being good with numbers. if you take reasonably priced ingredients and can only turn them into something that tastes like burnt cardboard it won't matter how disciplined you are... you'll either crack and splurge or go insane after a month.

but yea - just showing how minimum wage can be a living wage.

[burn_this_city]

Good to see the high and mighty crowd is down with living with strangers and eating cat food..

[RedHot25]

when it comes to a food budget, its not just being good with numbers. if you take reasonably priced ingredients and can only turn them into something that tastes like burnt cardboard it won't matter how disciplined you are... you'll either crack and splurge or go insane after a month.

but yea - just showing how minimum wage can be a living wage.

Sure, but this situation can apply to those that are rich or poor. I know of individuals who were quite rich but couldn't cook so ordered take out for virtually every meal.

[Phaneuf3]

Good to see the high and mighty crowd is down with living with strangers and eating cat food..
had to do it in college - don't see what's so bad.

try a vegetarian diet (i'm a vegetarian anyway so it helps) with rice and dehydrated beans as a staple and you'll see how little you actually need to spend on food while still having a healthy diet.

[Dion]

when it comes to a food budget, its not just being good with numbers. if you take reasonably priced ingredients and can only turn them into something that tastes like burnt cardboard it won't matter how disciplined you are... you'll either crack and splurge or go insane after a month.

but yea - just showing how minimum wage can be a living wage.

People often crack because they don't know how to cook. I did in my younger years by eating out a lot. Now that i have the cooking skills i'd rather eat at home.

[Cowboy89]

That's an interesting take. Are salaries in Calgary actually getting lower even during a recession such as this? I doubt it. Perhaps there are layoffs and less pay raises, but I would love to see numbers that suggest Calgarians' salaries are contracting now, let alone in the future, especially given our phenomenal rate of growth.


I don't know if you've been paying attention or not to a lot of the real estate companies that own and are building some of our cities new residential and commercial developments currently under construction right now. A lot of them are of a going concern in the FIRST HALF of 2009 (Especially those that have income exposure in other markets in Canada and the US). There are 'prominent' or 'high profile' projects that might not ultimately be completed as envisoned or even at all. We aren't immune, and our 'phenomenal rate of growth' is honestly yesterday's news. It's flat out incompetence to drive on fiscally and ignore these warning signs.

There are going to be more and more holes in the ground put on hold mid-construction. That's a lot of construction workers that are going to be laid off pronto. I think unemployment falls under 'lower salaries' don't you?

[ken0042]

Good to see the high and mighty crowd is down with living with strangers and eating cat food..

Who mentioned cat food?

I'll admit I showed rental situations where you might have to meet the person you are boarding with, but really- are you saying that there are no other room mate situations that exist?

Most people I know lived with room mates at one time or another. I've also had room mates that I didn't know well before moving in with them. That's why you check things out and see what the situation is.

I don't think one can be considered "high and mighty" if they have lived that life themselves.

[RougeUnderoos]

Question:

Who on the city workforce makes less than $13.25?

I'm kind of wondering that myself.

Maybe people in the city hall cafeteria?

I don't think there are many on the payroll who will need a raise to get to that 13.25. There might be a few though. I don't know. It can't be many.

[burn_this_city]

Who mentioned cat food?

I'll admit I showed rental situations where you might have to meet the person you are boarding with, but really- are you saying that there are no other room mate situations that exist?

Most people I know lived with room mates at one time or another. I've also had room mates that I didn't know well before moving in with them. That's why you check things out and see what the situation is.

I don't think one can be considered "high and mighty" if they have lived that life themselves.


I was mostly just being a ######.. It wouldnt be the worst existence in the world. It just hard to cover dental or anything else with $125 a month. You would be eeking out a really tough living on minimum wage.

[Bill Bumface]

If wage goes up to a minimum $13.25 an hour, I will promptly be asking my employer to raise my hourly rate to match that. I am a certain % over the minimum wage (as is everybody), and my salary should reflect that... so should yours.

Joe Downtown Worker who makes 600% of minimum wage shouldn't expect to go from $51/hour to $79.50/hour and you shouldn't expect to get an increase in pay either.

Question:

Who on the city workforce makes less than $13.25?

I know in 1999 when I almost took a job with City Parks and Rec for the summer it was already $13 to lean on a shovel.

[Azure]

Such a wage would only work in Alberta...because of the huge job demand. But, having said that, I still thinks a bad idea. Slowly increase it....not a insane jump like that so sudden.

[Dion]

Such a wage would only work in Alberta...because of the huge job demand. But, having said that, I still thinks a bad idea. Slowly increase it....not a insane jump like that so sudden.

Not to mention that a large increase would cause a lot of small businesses to close shop.

[Phaneuf3]

Not to mention that a large increase would cause a lot of small businesses to close shop.
To hell with those greedy corporations then - they're keeping the little guy down. Screw them. Worker's rights!
$0.00/hr is better than $8.40/hr

[Azure]

Not to mention that a large increase would cause a lot of small businesses to close shop.

Yeah, that too. Contrary to popular opinion, increasing the rate of minimum wage isn't always a good idea.

If you're a small business, and you can afford to pay 2 people $18/h combined, it doesn't mean you'll be able to afford $27/h combined. Thats almost a 1/3 increase.

[Azure]

To hell with those greedy corporations then - they're keeping the little guy down. Screw them. Worker's rights!
$0.00/hr is better than $8.40/hr

Sarcasm or not.....there are a lot of opportunities in Calgary right now with starting wages above $13/h.

The only thing a $13/h baseline would do is screw over the small-town business in Pincher Creek, Alberta because they're going to close up shop rather than pay their people almost double more in salary.

They can compete with Wal-mart at $8/h.....but they can't compete with Walmart at $13/h.

[First Lady]

Sarcasm or not.....there are a lot of opportunities in Calgary right now with starting wages above $13/h.

The only thing a $13/h baseline would do is screw over the small-town business in Pincher Creek, Alberta because they're going to close up shop rather than pay their people almost double more in salary.

They can compete with Wal-mart at $8/h.....but they can't compete with Walmart at $13/h.


Right now it is only the City of Calgary that is suggesting it. It would apply to their own employees and businesses that do busines with the city.

I don't think the PC's have any plans of taking the province down this road. In fact the government monitors this and I found a great document while researching this.
(See I can give our provinicial government credit.... when it's due. ;) )

http://employment.alberta.ca/documents/LMI/LMI-WSI_minwageprofile.pdf (http://employment.alberta.ca/documents/LMI/LMI-WSI_minwageprofile.pdf)

Couple excerpts:


Most of Alberta's employees earned more than minimum wage. The province had 19,740 minimum wage earners, which made up 1.3% of all employees, the lowest percentage among Canadian provinces. This analysis was based on 1,467,260 Alberta employees of organizations, excludes 508,178 individuals who were self-employed, unpaid family workers or who worked more than 44 hours per week. (See Figure 4)


In Alberta, the minimum wage earner profile was as follows from April 2007 to March 2008.
�� aged 15-19 years
�� part-time work
�� private sector work
�� permanent employment
�� non-union employee
�� less than one year of job experience
�� work in the Accommodation and Food Services industry
�� work in a Sales and Service occupations n.e.c.3
�� some high school education
�� female

[SebC]

I hope all you socialists who support this realize that minimum wage creates unemployment. Sad but true... basic economics.

[First Lady]

I hope all you socialists who support this realize that minimum wage creates unemployment. Sad but true... basic economics.

Yup.

Private employers ante up for the source deductions so it costs them more beyond the higher wage. They really have two choices; lay people off or pass the costs along to their customers by increasing prices of the product or service.

If everyone is raising costs of products and services the cost of living goes up.... so then what we up the living wage again.... vicious circle.

In the case of municipalities; like Calgary.... they raise our taxes....:mad:

[Azure]

I hope all you socialists who support this realize that minimum wage creates unemployment. Sad but true... basic economics.

And a jump like this would skyrocket unemployment rates.

[Dion]

And a jump like this would skyrocket unemployment rates.

Small business owners would be closing shops sending people to the unemployment line. That or the ones that stayed open would jack up the prices of their services making the consumer pay big time.

[Weiser Wonder]

I hope all you socialists who support this realize that minimum wage creates unemployment. Sad but true... basic economics.
I'm not sure of the specific facts of this case (I'm American educated and haven't lived in Canada for years) but employment isn't the be all and end all of standard of living. There are a lot of people that are fully employed and live in perpetual poverty. In Idaho there are tons of people like that.

[Azure]

I'm not sure of the specific facts of this case (I'm American educated and haven't lived in Canada for years) but employment isn't the be all and end all of standard of living. There are a lot of people that are fully employed and live in perpetual poverty. In Idaho there are tons of people like that.

The only thing worse than that is to be unemployed and live in poverty.

[Weiser Wonder]

The only thing worse than that is to be unemployed and live in poverty.
Good thing those aren't the only options.

[CaramonLS]

Yup.

Private employers ante up for the source deductions so it costs them more beyond the higher wage. They really have two choices; lay people off or pass the costs along to their customers by increasing prices of the product or service.

If everyone is raising costs of products and services the cost of living goes up.... so then what we up the living wage again.... vicious circle.

In the case of municipalities; like Calgary.... they raise our taxes....:mad:

So I guess in your world only 90% of the people can afford to the basic needs to live?

A wonderful cycle, isn't it?

Don't start crying wolf for businesses here now, there are plenty of large businesses which could afford to have their staffing costs double and barely blink and eye. Hell, I work for one (and no it is not an oil company and yes I have seen the financials).

[First Lady]

So I guess in your world only 90% of the people can afford to the basic needs to live?

We already have a myriad of support programs and assistance available to the underemployed.

We also have programs for those who are, for what ever reason unable to support themselves (AISH); which is sadly lacking IMO. But that is provinicial and another can of worms.

Wage should be based on education, experience and performance. Want to make a better wage; increase any of those and you will.

I would sooner see tax $ going to programs to help people "improve" their own education, experience, etc. Rather than blanket "cure all" raises.

A wonderful cycle, isn't it?

Don't start crying wolf for businesses here now, there are plenty of large businesses which could afford to have their staffing costs double and barely blink and eye. Hell, I work for one (and no it is not an oil company and yes I have seen the financials).

I agree the larger ones could like absorb it. And if their employees are worth $13.25 an hour they will pay it.

Smaller businesses though; who are a huge employer in Alberta, have smaller margins.

I have done the calculation of the difference between the minimum wage of $8.40 and the living wage of $13.25.

On the employee side; while their gross pay goes up 57% their take home pay goes up 45%. Still a very healthy increase.

For the employer it means a 130% increase to the source deduction cost.

As I mentioned, a lot of small employers will have to lay people off when hit with hikes like that...

... but this is about the City doing this with our money.... and of course the next step is forcing everyone else to do it.

[Vulcan]

As others have said this isn't an increase in the minimum wage so it won't effect most small business. What it does is put a floor of the wage scale that companies doing business for the city have. Say if company A pays it's workers $8/hr while company B pays it's workers $13/ hr. Company A can make a lower bid on a contract and win the contract. The city is saying they don't want to a part of labour usury. It may not be of practicable use in good times but in a recession where greedy employers can take advantage of the more desperate, it will be the moral thing to do.

I have some sympathy for business but some greedy employers have to realize that if they dont' pay a living wage, who's going to buy their product. I like to see a happy medium between business and labour where they can both win but around here the attitude seems to be to screw the lower guy on the totem pole and just tell him to suck it up.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

The weird thing about this is the city has no business in the discussion.

We pay a lot of money and elect folk at a provincial and federal level to manage our social policy.

They city wouldn't need so many tax hikes if they quit wading into areas that are not their place.

[Muta]

Joe Downtown Worker who makes 600% of minimum wage shouldn't expect to go from $51/hour to $79.50/hour and you shouldn't expect to get an increase in pay either.


$51 an hour would be nice....

Perhaps I'm getting this confused with minimum wage. If it somewhat related to minimum wage, and the cost of doing business just went up, I can justify a salary increase request to match the percentage of what that cost went up by.

If minimum wage goes up, I will always be asking my average hourly rate to be boosted up comparatively. If not, then you're making closer to minimum wage than you were the previous day with no real justification as to why that is. It's a fair request.

[ken0042]

I guess I don't see my salary as a percentage over minimum wage. I see minimum wage as law that states you cannot pay a person less than that; not a benchmark to base all other wages upon.

Back when I used to work jobs that were near minimum wage I used to see it and couldn't understand it. Here's an example. MW is $5/hr. Joe makes $5.50/hr. MW goes up to $6/hr, and so does Joe's wage.

Should Joe be happy to be making more money, or mad that he is now "back down" to minimum wage. Or even better, Joe's boss tells him he will now make $6.25/hr. He now has picked up a 13% raise, but is only 25¢ over MW as opposed to 50¢.

[Vulcan]

"If nothing else the left has the knack for picking the perfect adjective", when describing the "living wage".

The right doesn't do a bad job of this either.
Remember the "Right to Work" slogan that big business was throwing around at one time. What it really was, was an attempt to break unions and was the right to work for less.

[DementedReality]

I have some sympathy for business but some greedy employers have to realize that if they dont' pay a living wage, who's going to buy their product. I like to see a happy medium between business and labour where they can both win but around here the attitude seems to be to screw the lower guy on the totem pole and just tell him to suck it up.

your wage is a direct reflection of how much $$$ you can make the company.

if you can articule that you earn the company $1,000,000 per year and that money would not be coming in if you left the firm, I guarantee you could earn 6 figures.

if you cant articulate how much money you are worth, you will get whatever you are offered and it probably will be under $20.00 per hour.

it simple. you want to make $$$ for your bank, learn how to make $$$ for your company and you will get paid. guaranteed.

[Phaneuf3]

I guess I don't see my salary as a percentage over minimum wage. I see minimum wage as law that states you cannot pay a person less than that; not a benchmark to base all other wages upon.

Back when I used to work jobs that were near minimum wage I used to see it and couldn't understand it. Here's an example. MW is $5/hr. Joe makes $5.50/hr. MW goes up to $6/hr, and so does Joe's wage.

Should Joe be happy to be making more money, or mad that he is now "back down" to minimum wage. Or even better, Joe's boss tells him he will now make $6.25/hr. He now has picked up a 13% raise, but is only 25¢ over MW as opposed to 50¢.
From your example, the people that would get screwed are the people that are doing a more demanding job and are already making $6/hour. Minimum wage gets raised to $6/hr but they don't see an increase. Now they're doing a tougher job than Joe for the same wage.

Of course, the differences become more dramatic when you're talking about a $5 jump or something like that.

[Cowboy89]

As others have said this isn't an increase in the minimum wage so it won't effect most small business. What it does is put a floor of the wage scale that companies doing business for the city have. Say if company A pays it's workers $8/hr while company B pays it's workers $13/ hr. Company A can make a lower bid on a contract and win the contract. The city is saying they don't want to a part of labour usury. It may not be of practicable use in good times but in a recession where greedy employers can take advantage of the more desperate, it will be the moral thing to do.



Greed doesn't drive business decisions in recession. Survival with a decent balance sheet does. Quite frankly if paying people more ruins the economics for types of business than said type of business will either be staffed by cheaper labor or failing that (Due to an artificial feel good city initiative or a mandated higher minimum wage), the type of business will either scale back or just not go ahead at all and take away from the overall job stock available for the population.


http://www.despair.com/potential.html

[Vulcan]

Greed doesn't drive business decisions in recession. Survival with a decent balance sheet does. Quite frankly if paying people more ruins the economics for types of business than said type of business will either be staffed by cheaper labor or failing that (Due to an artificial feel good city initiative or a mandated higher minimum wage), the type of business will either scale back or just not go ahead at all and take away from the overall job stock available for the population.


http://www.despair.com/potential.html

Hey, I'm not saying all business's are greedy, but the temptation, to pay lower wages during a recession when the employer has his pick of many job applicants, is there, whether he can afford to pay more or not. It's the law of supply and demand, and for society to function, there needs to be some checks as the Wall street fiasco has driven home.

In this case, if the company can't survive when competing with others paying the same wages, they either improve their practises or go out of business. They can't make up their deficiencies by paying lower wages.

[RougeUnderoos]

Skyrocketing unemployment, poverty, socialism, lost jobs in Pincher Creek...

Did you all read a different article than I did?

The article I read says that city employees and people contracted out to do city work will be making this $13.25 minimum.

I had a gander at the city's job site and there are a few people (baby sitters, waterslide watchers) that do make less than $13.25, so there might be a few people in town who get a raise. The vast majority of the city's employees make more than this already.

It's not a minimum wage for every business in town to follow.

[Cowboy89]

Hey, I'm not saying all business's are greedy, but the temptation, to pay lower wages during a recession when the employer has his pick of many job applicants, is there, whether he can afford to pay more or not. It's the law of supply and demand, and for society to function, there needs to be some checks as the Wall street fiasco has driven home.

In this case, if the company can't survive when competing with others paying the same wages, they either improve their practises or go out of business. They can't make up their deficiencies by paying lower wages.

So for society to function businesses should be forced to pay higher than the going rate for new workers because some of them might be able to afford it? So as a reward for running a business so prudently that it performs admirably in a recession, they have to be saddled with paying over the market price for labor?

I agree with your second paragraph up until the last sentance. I don't see how the economy is ahead in a situation where there are unemployed workers in a situation that they are willing to work for a particular wage and there are businesses that need their labor at said wage to survive, but a hiring transaction cannot take place due to laws banning employment at that wage. The means in addition to unemployed workers you have unemployed business owners. Where are these people going to work? and out of whose pockets are their wages going to be paid? By all means if a business needs cheap labor to survive but it can't find laborers at that price then business practices need to improve.

Also what has the 'Wall Street fiasco' as you put it in your own words 'driven home' about the need for checks in hiring wage policy of businesses? I don't even see how this is related. If it's a general outcry that there might be some places where new regulation is needed I can agree with you. But blanket anti free-market policies as a knee-jerk reaction to what caused the credit crisis wouldn't be prudent.