Dion to step down as leader

[the_only_turek_fan]

After the Liberal leadership convention, as per AM77.

[Tyler]

Good riddance

[HotHotHeat]

*Crickets*

[Boblobla]

I heard that Clay Aiken and Lance Bass are takers as well from the 'Least Shocking News Ever' feed.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Damn, this is terrible news.
This means the Liberals might actually get a leader who knows what he is doing.

[Russic]

I don't identify with any party in particular, but thank god. This may not be the most popular opinion around here, but I'd like to see Harper resign next. To not take a majority off arguably the weakest Liberal leader in Canadian history is laughable.

[Bertuzzied]

What did they think would happen when they got the 3rd best guy for the job.

I wonder when Stelmach will realize he is a tool and step down also.

[Dion]

Look for Michael Ignatief to become the next leader of the Liberal party

[jammies]

I blame his winking avatar, it finally became too much for him and he had to go off on a quixotic quest that many men before have lost their lives in pursuing - the elusive MILF.

Oh wait, wrong Dion. Never mind.

[burn_this_city]

My girlfriend is praying for this.. Shes a huge liberal bleeding heart and was devastated when Dion won last time around.

The conservative in me wished he stuck around a lil longer to completely destroy the brand ;)

[the_only_turek_fan]

Look for Michael Ignatief to become the next leader of the Liberal party

Don't count out Ralph Goodale, Bob Rae, or John McCallum.

Ignateif would be the best for that party though.

[CaptainCrunch]

I think this is a good first step for the Liberal's, however their problems go so much deeper then just their leadership.

1) They've really lost touch with their core voters, in fact I think that they took their voters for granted and weren't responsive to them at all, and threw in goofy platform promises etc that alienated the votes that they were willing to guarantee. I think that the Liberals like the Japanese in WWII had victory fever, they believed that their loss to the Conservatives in the last election was an aberration and that they were still the natural ruling party of Canada and they would get votes no matter what they said or did.

2) The Liberal's are broke, and their leadership Canadiates are having money problem. There were rumors in the news on the weekend that the Liberal leadership was exploring the option of declaring bankruptsy. It doesn't help that Jean Chretien changed the rules of fundraising, and on top of that donations from the average folk were not as forth coming. The Liberals also lost approx 1.8 million dollars in federal money due to their poor election performance. Before the Liberal's can even think of toppling the government they need to do some serious fundraising.

3) The leadership convention is going to tear the Liberals apart in terms of internal support, we're already seeing some of that as different factions are pushing for different interim leaders, this is a party thats bitter about its performance in the election, red faced over the results and they're starting to fight.

4) There's always a chance that they could screw up on the new leader like they did last time. This time around there really are three candidates, ignatieff (sp?) whose problem is that he's a little too right wing for the Liberal image, McKenna who to me would be the obvious choice, and Bob Rae who to me would destroy the Libs in Ontario and in the West completely. To me if there is any kind of vote splitting and deal making again, someone like Rae could come in and finish the job.

To me the Liberal's should do whatever they can to delay anykind of fall of the government no matter how much it hurts their pride. They need to make sure that they get a consensus on the leader that heals the frifts in their party, rebrand themselves and decide if they're a centrist party or a left or center party, reconnect with their core support, and fund raise like crazy.

But does a leader solves the Liberal's woes? Not even close.

[albertGQ]

Good news for Liberals

Bad news for CPC

[Thunderball]

I don't identify with any party in particular, but thank god. This may not be the most popular opinion around here, but I'd like to see Harper resign next. To not take a majority off arguably the weakest Liberal leader in Canadian history is laughable.

While Harper isn't the most marketable leader around... I kind of doubt having someone else would make a whole lot of difference.

I am of the opinion that we are at a stage right now where a majority government for anyone might be unattainable. And here's why:

First, I don't think more than 35-40% of Canadians are Conservative. Harper or not, this is the high watermark. The traditional push over the top used to come from Quebec federalists, who now vote Bloc. Any attempt to really woo them back will piss off nationalist conservatives in Ontario and the Maritimes.

Second, a lot of Harper's gains came from Liberal angst with Dion and to a lesser extent, the Sponsorship scandal. With a new leader, there's a new question. Alienate the leftist liberals to the NDP, or alienate the Blue Liberals. Aside from maybe Frank McKenna, the expected options are the same as last time, complete with the usual pitfalls. Goodale and McCallum still represent the Old Guard, and there's downfalls to that. Dion was supposed to be the Ed Stelmach of the Liberals, the concensus builder and middle road choice. Look how that ended up.

Third, the NDP, Green and Bloc split the leftist to centrist vote. The Greens played spoiler in more than a couple ridings, imagine if they had a competent leader. So long as the three are factors, the CPC lose out on the critical majority granting Federalist Quebec vote, and the Liberals lose out everywhere. With the minor parties splitting over 85 seats, that leaves about 223 seats between the major ones. A majority would require a major stumble from these minor parties as well as a major blunder from one of the major parties. Even Dion wasn't catastrophic enough. Had the United Alternative existed in the 1990s, odds are the Liberals would have enjoyed a minority government, rather than straight majorities.

[JerzeeGirl]

Personally, I liked alot of what Dion was saying - being a fairly Liberal minded person. I liked his politics better than Harper's anyways. What I always heard from people who weren't voting Liberal was because it was voting for a "French Guy". I thought that was wrong - it's one thing to hate him cuz he doesn't represent your pov politically but to do it mainly because he's a Quebecer whose second language is english is wrong imho.

[RedHot25]

Don't count out Ralph Goodale, Bob Rae, or John McCallum.

Ignateif would be the best for that party though.

Frank McKenna says hello.

I've also heard rumblings of John Manley as well.

[peter12]

Here is a fantastic article by Stephen Taylor, a conservative blogger, on the short-comings of the Liberal Party and why another leadership race is not the solution to the party's ills.

http://www.stephentaylor.ca/

[Russic]

My girlfriend is praying for this.. Shes a huge liberal bleeding heart and was devastated when Dion won last time around.

The conservative in me wished he stuck around a lil longer to completely destroy the brand ;)

So this whole experience is similar to Kevin Lowe stepping down as GM of the oilers then? I think I understand how all Conservatives feel now!

[octothorp]

Good news for the Liberals.

If McKenna decides to re-enter politics, then he should handily become the next leader of the Liberals.

Failing that, I'd like to see Ignatieff, although I'm a bit worried that he was willing to make deals with Rae last time around. My biggest concern is keeping Rae as far away from the purse-strings of Canada as possible. I'm also a bit worried that Igantieff has too much baggage that can be used against him: the fact that he lived outside of Canada for 30 years and once identified himself as an American, and the fact that he was a staunch supporter of the war in Iraq.

[moncton golden flames]

help us frank mckenna, you're our only hope!

[ken0042]

What I always heard from people who weren't voting Liberal was because it was voting for a "French Guy". I thought that was wrong - it's one thing to hate him cuz he doesn't represent your pov politically but to do it mainly because he's a Quebecer whose second language is english is wrong imho.

I agree with you to a point, however I think in the world the way it is right now it's better to have a leader with a firm grasp on English. He will be conversing with other leaders who may also have English as a 2nd language, so it would be better for at least one person to know the language that is being conversed in.

There is nothing wrong with having a leader who is from Quebec, but why not look at a guy like Mulroney; where I recall being once being shocked at how good his French was until I found out that he was from Quebec.

[CaptainCrunch]

Personally, I liked alot of what Dion was saying - being a fairly Liberal minded person. I liked his politics better than Harper's anyways. What I always heard from people who weren't voting Liberal was because it was voting for a "French Guy". I thought that was wrong - it's one thing to hate him cuz he doesn't represent your pov politically but to do it mainly because he's a Quebecer whose second language is english is wrong imho.

I would normally agree with you, but there can't be a double standard. Its strongly implied that any english candidate has to have a strong grasp over french, in fact Harper took a lot of critisism for his lack of french language skills and worked very hard to upgrade it. It should be fair in that a leader from Quebec can also speak both official languages fluently. Also since the Prime Minister has to do a lot of business with English speaking countries he should be fluent in English.

I felt bad for Dion, however his pronouncement earlier in the Campaign that he was a nationalist when he was quebec, and his comprehension issues in English really hurt his standings outside of Quebec.

[octothorp]

CBC has a decent run-down of potential candidates.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/10/20/f-liberal-possibles.html

[jtfrogger]

I think the interesting thing about this, is Dion will be the first Liberal Leader in 120 years that does not become the Prime Minister. I had to look it up, and Edward Blake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Blake) was the last one not to become PM, and he was the leader from 1880-87.

[getbak]

I blame his winking avatar, it finally became too much for him and he had to go off on a quixotic quest that many men before have lost their lives in pursuing - the elusive MILF.

Oh wait, wrong Dion. Never mind.
Funny, but my first reaction to seeing the thread title was that it was going to be about Phaneuf giving up the "A", and I wondered why it was in Off Topic.

I forgot all about the other guy.

[CaptainCrunch]

Its hilarious, but as a subscriber, part member of the Liberal Party (surprise), I get their mailers and emails, and sure enough, I got one from Dion today whining about the fact that the Conservatives have more money and they spent it on ads saying mean things about him.

If thats their idea of fund raising instead of being honest and saying that they spent themselves into oblivion with zero results, I expect its going to be hard for them to pick up any kind of money.

I've lost a ton of respect for Dion and the Liberals, instead of standing up and saying we had a bad platform, we lost touch with you the Voter, they lost because the Prime Minister said mean things about him.

Bleah.

[Resolute 14]

Well, that and that argument is totally hypocritical given the bushharper ads, and all of the other attacks.

[JerzeeGirl]

I would normally agree with you, but there can't be a double standard. Its strongly implied that any english candidate has to have a strong grasp over french, in fact Harper took a lot of critisism for his lack of french language skills and worked very hard to upgrade it. It should be fair in that a leader from Quebec can also speak both official languages fluently. Also since the Prime Minister has to do a lot of business with English speaking countries he should be fluent in English.

I felt bad for Dion, however his pronouncement earlier in the Campaign that he was a nationalist when he was quebec, and his comprehension issues in English really hurt his standings outside of Quebec.

TBH I completely agree with you however, I was watching CBC Sunday news one slow day (sorry no link, it was just a conversation btwn the hosts) and they mentioned part of the difficulty Dion had with English was due to a hearing impairment. It's not a total excuse but it is a bit of bacground on why he would have some additional issues in English. (And honestly have you paid attention to Harper or Layton in French - Layton isn't bad but Harper is still kind of an automaton.)

Here's a link from the Globe & Mail dealing with it:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080910.wldion10/BNStory/lifeMain/home

[HOOT]

Liberals would have got my vote if they would have done this about 2 weeks ago.

[CaptainCrunch]

TBH I completely agree with you however, I was watching CBC Sunday news one slow day (sorry no link, it was just a conversation btwn the hosts) and they mentioned part of the difficulty Dion had with English was due to a hearing impairment. It's not a total excuse but it is a bit of bacground on why he would have some additional issues in English. (And honestly have you paid attention to Harper or Layton in French - Layton isn't bad but Harper is still kind of an automaton.)

Here's a link from the Globe & Mail dealing with it:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080910.wldion10/BNStory/lifeMain/home

I always thought that it was convenient that his hearing impairment only came up after he blew his CTV interview. Not necessarily saying I don't believe him, but usually when a politician screws up they make up an excuse. And Harper might be an automaton, but he understands and speaks french at a pretty proficient level.

[Resolute 14]

Well, if this doesn't describe how the Liberals are running right now. I just got a mailer for my Liberal candidate today.

He's only a week late.

And it was delivered to my DOOR.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

wait.....I don't believe it.....Phaneuf is a Liberal...no way!

[TimSJ]

I don't see McKenna going this time around. He would only want to be PM in my opinion and unless there was a real strong possibility that the liberals would win he won't go.. He is making big bucks in the private sector now and is enjoying life.

[MarchHare]

I don't see McKenna going this time around. He would only want to be PM in my opinion and unless there was a real strong possibility that the liberals would win he won't go.. He is making big bucks in the private sector now and is enjoying life.

With McKenna as leader, though, there is a real strong possibility that the Liberals would win.

Harper had everything going for him this past election -- the Liberals had their worst election result ever, and there was vote-splitting on the Left while the CPC was alone on the Right. Despite all that, Harper still failed to win a majority. To me, this says that the CPC (at least with Harper as leader) has peaked while the Liberals have likely hit rock bottom.

[Resolute 14]

Are the Liberals leftist or centrist?

And why does it always seem to change to match the convenience of the argument being made?

[CaptainCrunch]

With McKenna as leader, though, there is a real strong possibility that the Liberals would win.

Harper had everything going for him this past election -- the Liberals had their worst election result ever, and there was vote-splitting on the Left while the CPC was alone on the Right. Despite all that, Harper still failed to win a majority. To me, this says that the CPC (at least with Harper as leader) has peaked while the Liberals have likely hit rock bottom.

Honestly thats an over simplification. In the rest of Canada Harper pretty much had his majority, in Quebec he didn't. To me that shows that the values in the rest of Canada are pretty much the opposite of the values in Quebec, and if you sell your soul to one, you lose the other, and I really don't think that there's a balance point that you can successfully use.

I also think its going to be far harder for the Liberals then just appointint a new leader, I don't think thats going to fix their problems. I think the Liberal party is way to casual in its approach and it took the voters for granted. Basically they have a fairly arrogant attitude and they believe that they can pretty much say or promise anything and the people will vote for them, and thats plainly not the truth.

The Liberal message is confused and dead, where do they stand, because if they stand as a leftist party which Dion is and with Rae is they get slaughtered in the vote splitting. If they shift to the right with Ignatieff then they confuse their voter base, and I really don't think that there's a central position anymore.

Beyond that, I'm hoping that common sense prevails and the Liberals decide to focus on rebuilding their party and trying to dig their way out of debt and let this government do its job for 3 or 4 years, instead of blocking legislation not because its bad legislation, but because it wants to force the government to fall.

[Gozer]

Are the Liberals leftist or centrist?

And why does it always seem to change to match the convenience of the argument being made?

To the left of the conservatives on every issue, but I find it difficult to pin down what their base ideology is. They seem to just identify the conservative viewpoint and drift off it.

[MarchHare]

Are the Liberals leftist or centrist?

And why does it always seem to change to match the convenience of the argument being made?

The Liberals are a centre-left party (as opposed to the centre-right CPC and far-left NDP) whose policies can move slightly to either side of the spectrum depending on the leader or issue. Historically, when the Liberals have been in power, they've tended to be more centrist, and when they're in opposition, they've been more left-wing.

Consider, for example, Paul Martin. His fiscal policies were centre-right (balanced/surplus budgets, paying down the debt, lowering corporate taxes, etc.), but his social policies were more on the left side of the spectrum (legalizing gay marriage, decriminizing possession of small amounts of marijuana, etc.)

[EddyBeers]

I always thought that it was convenient that his hearing impairment only came up after he blew his CTV interview. Not necessarily saying I don't believe him, but usually when a politician screws up they make up an excuse. And Harper might be an automaton, but he understands and speaks french at a pretty proficient level.

Far be it from me to stand up for Dion, but he disclosed his hearing impairment 4 weeks before he blew his CTV interview.

[Slava]

Its hilarious, but as a subscriber, part member of the Liberal Party (surprise), I get their mailers and emails, and sure enough, I got one from Dion today whining about the fact that the Conservatives have more money and they spent it on ads saying mean things about him.

If thats their idea of fund raising instead of being honest and saying that they spent themselves into oblivion with zero results, I expect its going to be hard for them to pick up any kind of money.

I've lost a ton of respect for Dion and the Liberals, instead of standing up and saying we had a bad platform, we lost touch with you the Voter, they lost because the Prime Minister said mean things about him.

Bleah.

This thread left me behind when I read this! Who would eve dream that out of the two of us you are the card carrying Liberal!!?:eek:

[peter12]

This thread left me behind when I read this! Who would eve dream that out of the two of us you are the card carrying Liberal!!?:eek:

There are lots of liberal-minded people (see, classical liberals, libertarians) that would much more comfortably fit in the (c)onservative wing of the Liberal Party. The problem is, there is no philosophy, no intellectual movement to bring us in, it's all about power and personality. Two HUGE turnoffs.

[Resolute 14]

The Liberals are a centre-left party (as opposed to the centre-right CPC and far-left NDP) whose policies can move slightly to either side of the spectrum depending on the leader or issue. Historically, when the Liberals have been in power, they've tended to be more centrist, and when they're in opposition, they've been more left-wing.

Consider, for example, Paul Martin. His fiscal policies were centre-right (balanced/surplus budgets, paying down the debt, lowering corporate taxes, etc.), but his social policies were more on the left side of the spectrum (legalizing gay marriage, decriminizing possession of small amounts of marijuana, etc.)

And that's the thing... You're blaming vote splitting on the left, while arguing that the left wing party(-ies) are a hell of a lot farther away from the Liberals ideologically than the Conservatives are. Simply put, the Liberals arent losing to vote splitting. They've lost support across the board.

[CaptainCrunch]

This thread left me behind when I read this! Who would eve dream that out of the two of us you are the card carrying Liberal!!?:eek:

Lets just say that I like to keep an open mind. I joined the Liberal party a long time ago, I have donated funds to them, however I wouldn't say I'm active anymore.

I kept my membership active so that I can continue to get platform and policy information from them.

[CaptainCrunch]

Far be it from me to stand up for Dion, but he disclosed his hearing impairment 4 weeks before he blew his CTV interview.

However when he disclosed it, he said it effected him in loud crowds. The CTV interview was in a stone quiet room, and his followups on the question certainly didn't indicate that his confusion was over not hearing the question, it came across as not understanding the question, and those are two different things.

[MarchHare]

And that's the thing... You're blaming vote splitting on the left, while arguing that the left wing party(-ies) are a hell of a lot farther away from the Liberals ideologically than the Conservatives are. Simply put, the Liberals arent losing to vote splitting. They've lost support across the board.

I'm not blaming vote-splitting for the result at all, but it was certainly an advantage Harper and the CPC had going for them in this election. Dion was a poor leader who ran a horrible campaign, and there is still some remaining dissatisfaction with the Liberals over the Chretien-era scandals. That's why they lost.

[CaptainCrunch]

I'm not blaming vote-splitting for the result at all, but it was certainly an advantage Harper and the CPC had going for them in this election. Dion was a poor leader who ran a horrible campaign, and there is still some remaining dissatisfaction with the Liberals over the Chretien-era scandals. That's why they lost.

You can ad to that, the Liberals completely misread the issues that the Voters were interested in, so beyond the horrible leader and the badly organized campaign that never really kicked off the ground. The Libs couldn't explain their policies or what they stood for, then they stole a page from Jake Layton's playbook and started acting like a party that couldn't win and they made blind bluster spending promises, all on the backs of nobody being able to explain or define their key platforms.

The Liberal's seriously need to redefine themselves as a party, plugging in a better leader isn't going to help them, especially if the Conservatives start pork barreling Quebec to break the blocks hold on their voter base.

[old-fart]

Nice presser by Dion. If he wasn't being characterized as a whiney wimp before, that interview will solidify it. Pathetic display, and making a lot of people say "thank god we didn't vote this fool in".

Glad he's staying on for 6 months or so to get punched in the face by Harper. Looking forward to Rae taking over - might be the easiest "target" of them all. Go Rae Go!

[MarchHare]

Nice presser by Dion. If he wasn't being characterized as a whiney wimp before, that interview will solidify it. Pathetic display, and making a lot of people say "thank god we didn't vote this fool in".

Glad he's staying on for 6 months or so to get punched in the face by Harper. Looking forward to Rae taking over - might be the easiest "target" of them all. Go Rae Go!

If Rae becomes Liberal leader, I'll join you guys and (grudgingly) vote Conservative next election.

[GGG]

I'm hoping Ignatief will win. I really want the Conservative Fiscal Policy and the Liberals social policy. The problem with the conservatives is that there are to many of the social conservatives affecting policy. I would say some of the most productive governments have come from fiscally right liberals. Romonow in Saskatchewan, Martin as finance minister for example.

[Rerun]

Bob Rae - 60 year old white guy Lawyer
Frank McKenna - 60 year old white guy Lawyer
Michael Ignatieff - 61 year old white guy University Professor

I think the Liberals should elect someone young who is a 10 on the hotness scale...

such as 34 year old MP Ruby Dhalla... <<< wolf whistle >>>

http://www.nriinternet.com/NRIpoliticians/CANADA/Ontario/Ruby_Dhalla/Dr_Rubi_Dhalla_4.JPG

[CaptainCrunch]

Bob Rae - 60 year old white guy Lawyer
Frank McKenna - 60 year old white guy Lawyer
Michael Ignatieff - 61 year old white guy University Professor

I think the Liberals should elect someone young who is a 10 on the hotness scale...

such as 34 year old MP Ruby Dhalla... <<< wolf whistle >>>

http://www.nriinternet.com/NRIpoliticians/CANADA/Ontario/Ruby_Dhalla/Dr_Rubi_Dhalla_4.JPG

I disagree with her soft on Bart Simpson Policy.

But I'm completely onboard with her hotness policy, suddenly watching prime minister speeches would be . . . . welll . . ..

I'll be in my bunk

[getbak]

Yes. Canada needs a PMILF.

[Resolute 14]

With her as leader, I might actually vote Liberal...

As long as my local candidate manages to get his flyer to me BEFORE the election.