Who is the greatest of all time?

[foofighter15]

Not an uncommon question in the hockey world right?

Gretzky, Howe, Orr....Crosby. All names people toss into this burning question among hockey fans. The usual answer, Gretzky.

So what I am asking you is,

Who is better, Gretzky or Roy?

A lot of people consider Roy to be the greatest goalie of all time, while others argue that by the time he retires Broudeur will be. And rightfully so. But for now. Given what you know about how both turn out talent wise and what they can bring to your team, who would you draft first if they were both 18 year olds?

The man who can stop the scorer, or the scorer who can beat the stopper?

[Mickey76]

Gretzky for sure, his inlaws didn't cause him as much trouble.

[getbak]

Gretzky.

[Rifleman]

Gretzky. Nearly 1000 pts. more than the second highest, while playing 20% less games. Roy, although best of all time, has numbers many goalies have come close to approaching.

The only blemish on Gretzky's record is he was not able to help another team, beside the Oilers win a Stanley Cup, whereas Messier and Roy were both able to win it with other teams.

[Rifleman]

If a goalie was going to approach Gretzky's impact on the game, this goalie would need to have accumulated about 800 wins, and do it in about 16 seasons.

[Dion]

Gretzky.

[Eric Vail]

Bobby Orr was the best. One year he was an incredible +124!
If you polled long time hockey fans, I am not sure Roy would get the nod as the best goalie of all time.

[King Theo]

Easy Gretzky, even when he stopped playing he could still control a game. Second place is still in the dust.

[killer_carlson]

lets see

one transcended the sport and is still the only hockey player most of the planet has ever heard of.

The other is not even clear cut as the best of all time in his position.

This is embarassing to even be having this discussion.

[habernac]

I am a big Roy fan, and this isn't even close. Gretzky by a longshot.

[FanIn80]

Yeah, this isn't really a valid conversation... to be quite honest.


(...and I absolutely agree that Roy is the best goalie of all-time, and that Brodeur doesn't get even half of the wins he did if he had to play on a non-trapping team even once in his career)

<stokes the fire :D>

[BCReefer]

Would you not look at the eras that each player played?

I mean Howe in his time could of been considered the best.

What about Bossy in his best of times?

Gretzky in his time and now Crosby.

Points are harder to come by now adays, players are bigger, game is faster, players are just better including the goalies which now have more protection than all time in the history of the NHL.

BUT - I also think Gretzky was the all time best, he seemed to play at a different level than everyone else. I love on comment someone said about him "A fire hydrant can score 50 goals playing with Gretzky"

Here are the points from 1990/91 Season

1 Wayne Gretzky (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00002035), Los Angeles.......163
2 Brett Hull (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00002410), St. Louis............131
3 Adam Oates (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00004052), St. Louis............115
4 Mark Recchi (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00004478), Pittsburgh..........113
5 John Cullen (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00001188), 2 teams.............110
6 Joe Sakic (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00004739), Quebec................109
7 Steve Yzerman (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00005844), Detroit...........108
8 Theoren Fleury (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00001712), Calgary..........104
9 Al MacInnis (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00003282), Calgary.............103
10 Steve Larmer (http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php3?pid=00002978), Chicago............101

2007/08 Season

1
Alexander Ovechkin (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8471214)
WSH L 82 65 47 112 2
Evgeni Malkin (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8471215)
PIT C 82 47 59 106 3
Jarome Iginla (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8462042)
CGY R 82 50 48 98 4
Pavel Datsyuk (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8467514)
DET C 82 31 66 97 5
Joe Thornton (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8466138)
SJS C 82 29 67 96 6
Henrik Zetterberg (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8468083)
DET C 75 43 49 92 7
Vincent Lecavalier (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8467329)
TBL C 81 40 52 92 8
Jason Spezza (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8469455)
OTT C 76 34 58 92 9
Daniel Alfredsson (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8460621)
OTT R 70 40 49 89 10
Ilya Kovalchuk (http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8469454)
ATL L 79 52 35 87

1970-71 Season

Phil Esposito (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Esposito)Boston Bruins78 76 76 152 71
Bobby Orr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Orr)Boston Bruins78 37 102 139 91
John Bucyk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bucyk)Boston Bruins78 51 65 116 8
Ken Hodge (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Hodge)Boston Bruins78 43 62 105 113
Bobby Hull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Hull)Chicago Black Hawks78 44 52 96 32
Norm Ullman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_Ullman)Toronto Maple Leafs73 34 51 85 24
Wayne Cashman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Cashman)Boston Bruins77 21 58 79 100
John McKenzie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McKenzie_(hockey_player))Boston Bruins65 31 46 77 120
Dave Keon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Keon)Toronto Maple Leafs76 38 38 76 4
Jean Beliveau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_B%C3%A9liveau)Montreal Canadiens70 25 51 76 40
Fred Stanfield (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Stanfield)Boston Bruins75 24 52 76 12

PS - Sorry about the format, had to edit a few times to make it look better

[CaptainCrunch]

Easy, Orr, he changed the game completely and played against some pretty tough competition, he was well rounded, he was a great defenseman, he was untouchable offensively, and he didn't need anyone to protect him.

Gretzky was a great player, but I felt that the immense watering down of the league inflated his stats by a bit.

[foofighter15]

Wow this is hysterical. I was having this conversation with a group of huge hockey fans and we were split down the middle, and the discussion got so intense we had to stop it before two guys fought. (Canuck fans)
Anyway, for the record, I'm on the Gretzky side

[Prototype]

Almost everyone knew Gretzky's name before he was able to drive. Almost no one knew Roy's name until 1986.

No brainer here.

Plus... Patrick Roy never had his own cereal, let alone video game, nor did he have a cartoon co-staring Bo Jackson... and... was it Jordan?

[Estevan]

Watch the top ten video's of Orr and Gretz and then tell me who appears in control of the situation. Orr is gold ... Gretzky is gold2

[Tyler]

Almost everyone knew Gretzky's name before he was able to drive. Almost no one knew Roy's name until 1986.

No brainer here.

Plus... Patrick Roy never had his own cereal, let alone video game, nor did he have a cartoon co-staring Bo Jackson... and... was it Jordan?

Yep - those three

Gretzky was always the lame nerd on the Pro-Stars show if I recall correctly.

[TheRedCrush]

I can't believe people even try to argue anyone except Gretzky, and I'm a Mario fan. Fact is Gretzky did accomplish what so many other talents did not over several era's.

Until someone dominates their position the way he did, its will be a long time before we see someone held in his regard. As for Goalies, if Roy or Brodeur had 300 more shutouts than number two on teh goalie list, then there could be reasonable debate on this topic.

Gretzky is the only hockey player mentioned for dominating a sport, which his accomplishments puts him at the top of all sports greatest players. No other NHL player is even in that debate. Not Orr, Not Howe, Not Roy, Not Bossy, Not Mario, Not Sid, Not Ovechkin, wayne and only wayne.

Anyone who says anyone except 99 is either stubbon, playing devils advocate or just doesn't understand how superior Gretzky was to everyone else in any Era. #2 Greatest player is more of a debate for the ages than who was number one - which is not a debate at this point.

[CaptainCrunch]

I can't believe people even try to argue anyone except Gretzky, and I'm a Mario fan. Fact is Gretzky did accomplish what so many other talents did not over several era's.

Until someone dominates their position the way he did, its will be a long time before we see someone held in his regard. As for Goalies, if Roy or Brodeur had 300 more shutouts than number two on teh goalie list, then there could be reasonable debate on this topic.

Gretzky is the only hockey player mentioned for dominating a sport, which his accomplishments puts him at the top of all sports greatest players. No other NHL player is even in that debate. Not Orr, Not Howe, Not Roy, Not Bossy, Not Mario, Not Sid, Not Ovechkin, wayne and only wayne.

Anyone who says anyone except 99 is either stubbon, playing devils advocate or just doesn't understand how superior Gretzky was to everyone else in any Era. #2 Greatest player is more of a debate for the ages than who was number one - which is not a debate at this point.

Out of curiosity, how old are you.

Because everything that you've said about Gretzky is true about Orr.

Nobody has ever dominated the defenseman's position in terms of offense, defense, overall toughness like Orr.

Nobody could change a game in a second like Orr. Before Orr came along it was pretty rare to see a defenseman even cross over the red line with the rare exception. Nobody opened up the game offensively like Orr did from the back line.

Plus Orr could take care of himself on the ice, he didn't need anyone fighting his own battles. When someone roughed him up, he dealt with it.

Orr didn't play in a 21 team league where some goalies were so bad that they had to be tied to the cross bars, where third and fourth lines and bottom pairing defensemen were pulled off of the street and couldn't skate at all.

I like Gretzky, he did amazing things. But to me, there's no comparison to Robert Gordon Orr.

[albertGQ]

Gretzky. No question. It's a close debate now and no one had to witness Orr playing into his mid and late 30's while everyone saw Gretzky play when he got old. If Wayne ended his career after 10 years, he would be #1 with a bullet

[ComixZone]

I stand by Mario Lemieux as the greatest player of all-time.

[albertGQ]

I stand by Mario Lemieux as the greatest player of all-time.

How old are you?

[GGG]

A healthy Lemeuix and a Healthy Orr may have been better then Gretzky but as it stands Gretzky was so good for so long. Even in his last few seasons he was still top 10 in scoring the leauge.

Its too bad that injuries shortened the other two's carreer but because you can't change history the answer is clearly gretzky

[ComixZone]

How old are you?

22, but don't hold it against me.

I really do believe a healthy Lemieux would have made these conversations a lot less in Gretzky's favour.

[habernac]

Out of curiosity, how old are you.

Because everything that you've said about Gretzky is true about Orr.

Nobody has ever dominated the defenseman's position in terms of offense, defense, overall toughness like Orr.

Nobody could change a game in a second like Orr. Before Orr came along it was pretty rare to see a defenseman even cross over the red line with the rare exception. Nobody opened up the game offensively like Orr did from the back line.

Plus Orr could take care of himself on the ice, he didn't need anyone fighting his own battles. When someone roughed him up, he dealt with it.

Orr didn't play in a 21 team league where some goalies were so bad that they had to be tied to the cross bars, where third and fourth lines and bottom pairing defensemen were pulled off of the street and couldn't skate at all.

I like Gretzky, he did amazing things. But to me, there's no comparison to Robert Gordon Orr.

you can't say Gretzky's era had subpar players without mentioning the fact that the 68 expansion brought a ton of sub par players with it as well.

I'll still take Gretzky. As for the "Lemieux was better" argument. no, he wasn't. He didn't put up the numbers. Gretzky played well and was also durable. It isn't his fault Lemieux had injury troubles.

[Berger_4_]

Bobby Orr. No doubt in my mind. He could fight, hit, skate, shoot, pass...he was the most complete player ever. Too bad those moron doctors hacked up his knees or he'd have been even greater.

[Huntsy]

Roy not even in the top 10 in my books. Gretzky edges out Orr and then the rest. Mario is not as high as you think because of his shorter career. He is still top 5 though. I would put Messier and Howe right after Grets and Orr. Then Mario followed by some day Brodeur. i put him ahead of Roy..

[albertGQ]

Roy not even in the top 10 in my books. Gretzky edges out Orr and then the rest. Mario is not as high as you think because of his shorter career. He is still top 5 though. I would put Messier and Howe right after Grets and Orr. Then Mario followed by some day Brodeur. i put him ahead of Roy..

Messier ahead of Lemieux? Are you kidding me?!?!? What reasons?!!?!?

[JimmytheT]

Generational bias is a bitch. I will say "Phantom" Joe Malone who played for the Quebec Bulldogs, Montreal Canadiens, and Hamilton Tigers between 1907-1924.

In 1916-17, Joe scored an astonishing 41 goals in 19 games (2.15 Goals per game). He followed that up in the 1917-18 season with 44 goals in 20 gamse (2.2 GPG).

Joe's assist totals are unfortunately depressed, due to the fact that during that era, there was no such thing as the 2nd assist. Only the immediate passer was awarded an assist.

Between the NHL's predecessor, the NHA, and the NHL Joe played 249 games (20-24 games seasons) with 322 goals and 381 points.

To summarize using 'per game':

Joe Malone Career GPG - 1.29
Joe Malone Career PPG - 1.53

Gretzky's Career GPG (NHL) - 0.60
Gretzky's Career PPG (NHL) - 1.92

Joe Malone was the most efficient goal-scorer to ever play the game. Gretzky's highest single season GPG was 1.18 in 1984, which pales in comparrison to Malone's 2.20 in 1918. Malone's career GPG is over 2 times greater than Gretzky's.

Gretzky was the benefactor of the 2nd assist which was not available to Joe Malone; it would be interesting to see Joe's Career PPG if the 2nd assist was counted then.

My conclusion is that Joe Malone is the greatest of all time.

[Huntsy]

Messier ahead of Lemieux? Are you kidding me?!?!? What reasons?!!?!?

Hmm. Lets see: More Points, More Cups, More leadership, More Heart, More games played, just to name a few...

[CaptainCrunch]

Generational bias is a bitch. I will say "Phantom" Joe Malone who played for the Quebec Bulldogs, Montreal Canadiens, and Hamilton Tigers between 1907-1924.

In 1916-17, Joe scored an astonishing 41 goals in 19 games (2.15 Goals per game). He followed that up in the 1917-18 season with 44 goals in 20 gamse (2.2 GPG).

Joe's assist totals are unfortunately depressed, due to the fact that during that era, there was no such thing as the 2nd assist. Only the immediate passer was awarded an assist.

Between the NHL's predecessor, the NHA, and the NHL Joe played 249 games (20-24 games seasons) with 322 goals and 381 points.

To summarize using 'per game':

Joe Malone Career GPG - 1.29
Joe Malone Career PPG - 1.53

Gretzky's Career GPG (NHL) - 0.60
Gretzky's Career PPG (NHL) - 1.92

Joe Malone was the most efficient goal-scorer to ever play the game. Gretzky's highest single season GPG was 1.18 in 1984, which pales in comparrison to Malone's 2.20 in 1918. Malone's career GPG is over 2 times greater than Gretzky's.

Gretzky was the benefactor of the 2nd assist which was not available to Joe Malone; it would be interesting to see Joe's Career PPG if the 2nd assist was counted then.

My conclusion is that Joe Malone is the greatest of all time.

Joe Malone was probably the greatest of the pre modern era. IIRC there was also a rover position while he played and it was a penalty if the goalies left their feet.

However it wasn't a penalty to spit tobacco juice in the goalies eyes on the way past

[albertGQ]

Hmm. Lets see: More Points, More Cups, More leadership, More Heart, More games played, just to name a few...

More points in alot more games played. Mario's PPG average is way better

More cups I'll give you that, but Glen Anderson has more Cups then Mario as well. Heck, even Cory Stillman has as many as Mario

More Heart? Who came back from cancer 12 points behind Pat Lafontaine and ends up winning the Art Ross trophy by 12 points

More leadership? If you call strong-arming a team to give him a dead guy's number, getting his head coach fired and hiring his buddy, and splitting the dressing room in half a leader, then I guess Mark is a better leader. Oh yeah. And he also ended his career captaining his team to seven straight years of non-playoff hockey.

More games played? You're right Ken Daneyko is much better than Bobby Orr

[JimmytheT]

Joe Malone was probably the greatest of the pre modern era. IIRC there was also a rover position while he played and it was a penalty if the goalies left their feet.

However it wasn't a penalty to spit tobacco juice in the goalies eyes on the way past

This rule was repealed in 1915 or 1916 I believe. I'm not sure about the rover position either, I think that was ousted in the early teens as well.

[troutman]

What about the Russians?

What would have Tretiak or Kharlamov done if they played their whole careers in the NHL?

[calgaryred]

Orr and Roy are amazing players who dominated their positions helped change the game, but Gretzky is a player that not only changed the game but is known worldwide for what he did for the sport of hockey.

[Netminder]

What is amazing is to watch OVI this guy is awsome,bit then watch there is always someone that can match ,another is Mario as per Wayne ,one Heck of a player

[OzSome]

I really hate to pick Wayne Gretzky because he used to play for the Edmonton Oilers but hate for the Oilers aside I think Gretzky is by far the best all time NHL player. I have to pick Mario Lemeiux as my second pick. Even though I never seen Gordie Howe played, I will have to pick him as #3.

[Hack&Lube]

The year before a beaten up and aging Gretzky retired do you know which NHL players in their prime he was practically tied with in that season? (1 point difference)




highlight
Forsberg and Bure of 1998

[GoJetsGo]

I often have the Orr vs. Gretzky argument in my own mind.

On one hand, Orr changed the game and won scoring titles as a defensmen. He was perhaps the most dynamic player to ever play the game and (at the time) looked like a man out there amongst boys.

If you don't know a lot about Orr or are too young to have seen him play I find this highlight package to be a good 'coles notes' type of thing:

MSDw3tMa7ec
(ignore the lame music)

Now, on the other hand, if you're giving Orr the nod over Gretzky, I always have to ask myself this:

What more did Gretzky have to do in order to move ahead of Orr?

Wayne Gretzky holds or shares 61 records listed in the League's Official Guide and Record Book: 40 for the regular season, 15 for the Stanley Cup playoff and six for the All-Star Game.

He also won ten Art Ross trophies and nine Hart trophies.

So again, if he didn't do enough to earn the distinction as the best ever, how much more would he have needed to do?

I am not choosing between the two. I am just pointing out the questions that pop up when trying to rank one over the other. :D

[Steve Bozek]

I would put Orr up there close to Gretzky, but the league was much more watered down when Orr played - it went from 6-12 teams with the new teams made up mainly of minor leaguers. The WHA came along and siphoned off even more talent, and the NHL "brains" refused to recognize the talent playing US college hockey. And the NHL was only beginning to realize that European players might know how to play the game.

By the time Gretzky was in the league, the WHA had folded, with only 4 teams surviving into the NHL; the Europeans were established (except for the USSR), and players from colleges and the National team (e.g. Glenn Anderson) were recognized for their talent. I would say that in the '80's, the league was at its closest to the talent level of the so-called "original 6" that it's ever been since the 1967 expansion. The expansion in the '90's, with no significant new talent pool (probably a contraction) makes today's teams look less strong than the '80's, IMHO


Easy, Orr, he changed the game completely and played against some pretty tough competition, he was well rounded, he was a great defenseman, he was untouchable offensively, and he didn't need anyone to protect him.

Gretzky was a great player, but I felt that the immense watering down of the league inflated his stats by a bit.

[yahoo]

Wow this is hysterical. I was having this conversation with a group of huge hockey fans and we were split down the middle, and the discussion got so intense we had to stop it before two guys fought. (Canuck fans)
Anyway, for the record, I'm on the Gretzky side

Silly Canuck fans, I once had to convince one that Gretzky played for the Oilers, he was only 25 but geeeez...

[Jables16]

I can't believe no one even brings up Mario Lemieux in this discussion. Obviously Gretzky's stats are untouchable but as far as skill as a player goes Lemieux is in the same class. If he had protection in Pittsburgh the way Gretzky did in Edmonton and didn't face so many other health issues there wouldn't be such a disparity between the two statistically. I've got no problem with Gretzky being regarded as the greatest player of all time since he clearly has the resume to make it a legitimate claim but in my eyes Mario will always be the man.

[Jables16]

Sorry, missed the Lemieux talk on the second page. Guess I jumped the gun a bit when it was nothing but non-stop Gretzky on the first page.

[redforever]

you can't say Gretzky's era had subpar players without mentioning the fact that the 68 expansion brought a ton of sub par players with it as well.

I'll still take Gretzky. As for the "Lemieux was better" argument. no, he wasn't. He didn't put up the numbers. Gretzky played well and was also durable. It isn't his fault Lemieux had injury troubles.


Or that Lemieux played for one of the weakest teams in the league.

That aside, isn't Gretzky's #99 retired right across the league? That should speak volumes.

[Coach]

Or that Lemieux played for one of the weakest teams in the league.

That aside, isn't Gretzky's #99 retired right across the league? That should speak volumes.
I think a few teams have retired it offiially but i think its just unofficlially retired as no one else dares wear it

[getbak]

I think a few teams have retired it offiially but i think its just unofficlially retired as no one else dares wear it
No, it was officially retired league-wide.

I think only the teams he actually played for had a ceremony and hung it from the rafters (I think Phoenix has it hanging up too).

[Coach]

No, it was officially retired league-wide.

I think only the teams he actually played for had a ceremony and hung it from the rafters (I think Phoenix has it hanging up too).

o ok i stand corrected

[Flames Addict]

Gretzky.

[disco_inferno]

Wow this is hysterical. I was having this conversation with a group of huge hockey fans and we were split down the middle, and the discussion got so intense we had to stop it before two guys fought. (Canuck fans)
Anyway, for the record, I'm on the Gretzky side

they couldn't pick between daniel and henrik?

FTR:

I pick 99 too. Way to dominant.

[Jetsfan]

If your referring to hockey....Gretzky.

Otherwise, its the Honky Tonk Man!

[getbak]

Otherwise, its the Honky Tonk Man!
He breaks the young girls' hearts and the old ladies' pacemakers.

[Rifleman]

Those people that mention the league being watered down, talent being siphoned off, expansion, etc. also have to take into account that would also mean said player would now be playing with LESS skilled players.

Also consider this:

In 1970-1971, Bobby Orr was second in points in the NHL with 139 pts, only 13 behind 1st place Phil Esposito. The second leading defenseman in terms of points? J.C. Trembley, with the Montreal Canadiens, with 63 pts. Bobby Orr more than DOUBLED the next best defenseman's points. And this is without mentioning the other intangibles Orr brought to the game.

Orr continued his dominance throughout his career, winning the defenseman scoring title while doubling or tripling his peers.

It's hard to make a definite call as to who was the best EVER between Gretzky and Orr. Gretzky has the points, and the longevity to back it up, but nowhere in Gretzky's career did he double or triple the next best player's stats at his position.

But as to who was more heads and shoulders above his peers, the choice is pretty obvious.

[albertGQ]

No, it was officially retired league-wide.

I think only the teams he actually played for had a ceremony and hung it from the rafters (I think Phoenix has it hanging up too).

I don't think St.Louis had a ceremony for him

[T@T]

Watch the top ten video's of Orr and Gretz and then tell me who appears in control of the situation. Orr is gold ... Gretzky is gold2

Orr was a fantastic player, he revolutionized the offensive defense-man but Gretzky destroyed every record in the game.

For every top ten video's of Bobby Orr out there, Gretzky has 10 of them!

I was a Bruins fan growing up and loved Bobby but fact is he was mostly a 4th forward on very good team that loved to pile up the goals, Gretzky was the reason the Oilers piled up the goals.

If Bobby was that good nobody would be wearing #4 in the league.

[simonsays]

Personally I say Gretz. I didn't have the opportunity to see Orr, so I while I can't say for certain who of those two was better, I respect the Orr votes. I can only judge based on what I've seen from actual games and not highlight reels. And while I also respect Lemieuxs talent to hell and back, he just didn't have the longevity that's required to be the best ever (and Orr didn't either in my mind).

Gretz career = 1.92 ppg over 1487 games for 2857 points and 894 goals.
Mario career = 1.88 ppg over 915 games for 1723 points and 690 goals.

[jammies]

Lemieux was more physically skilled than Gretzky, but Gretzky was still the better player, due entirely to his ability to predict exactly what the other 11 players on the ice would do around him. He would see the opportunities open up in his mind before they ever happened on the ice. Great players usually get the occasional glimpse with such vision, Gretzky had it every single shift.

Orr was also (from what I've seen) more skilled than Gretzky or Lemieux, and he also played like he was a couple steps ahead of everyone else on the ice. Is there anyone that wouldn't rather have a team with 5 Orrs on the ice rather than 5 Gretzkys? After all, Gretzky would have made a poor defencemen but Orr would have still been dominant at forward. That being said, longevity counts for something and Orr comes up very short there - if you were drafting each player knowing the future, I'd have to pick Gretzky over Orr just on that quality alone.

Roy? Please. The only person I would have thought that counted Roy as a legitimate best ever player would be Roy himself.

[BigRed]

22, but don't hold it against me.

I really do believe a healthy Lemieux would have made these conversations a lot less in Gretzky's favour.

I'm on board with this, and I'm 37 - a season ticket holder through Gretzky's best days with the Oilers when he tore the Flames apart 8 times a year plus playoffs.

Gretzky was the headiest player of all time -- an intuitive hockey genius who changed the game; but for pure skill, hands and creativity, nobody touches Mario, IMHO. Had he had the same general health as Gretzky over his career -- and had the chance to play with other all-time great players, which, with the exception of maybe three or four years, Mario didn't -- I think Gretzky's records could easily have been threatened.

As it stands, those of us old enough to watch hockey from 1985-95 were ridiculously spoiled to watch these two talents at the same time.

[redforever]

I'm on board with this, and I'm 37 - a season ticket holder through Gretzky's best days with the Oilers when he tore the Flames apart 8 times a year plus playoffs.

Gretzky was the headiest player of all time -- an intuitive hockey genius who changed the game; but for pure skill, hands and creativity, nobody touches Mario, IMHO. Had he had the same general health as Gretzky over his career -- and had the chance to play with other all-time great players, which, with the exception of maybe three or four years, Mario didn't -- I think Gretzky's records could easily have been threatened.

As it stands, those of us old enough to watch hockey from 1985-95 were ridiculously spoiled to watch these two talents at the same time.

1. I will agree, Mario had the better hands

2. And yup, we were spoiled, the magic goal here is at the 2:45 mark, Gretzky knew who had the hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS9BwliAJus

Edit: By the way, if you watch to the end of the clip, you should recognize someone on the bench.

[redforever]

ok if u factor in lemieux and orrs injuries and the fact that they still kicked ass the top 10 looks like this:
1: Bobby Orr
2:Mario Lemieux
3:wayne Gretzky
4:Raymond Bourque
5:Paul Coffey
6:Gordie Howe
7:Steve Yzerman
8:Joe Sakic
9:Bobby Hull
10:Guy Lafleur

You cant include messier because gretzky made him. You cant inclue the rocket no disrespect he played on the greatest dynasty ever and had help. Guy Lafluer is there because he played on a good dynasty but had less help


I read through some of the comments of that video clip with Gretzky and Lemieux in the 1987 Canada Cup and found the list I posted above, pretty interesting analysis.

[CroFlames]

Well the Oilers thread turned into a GOAT discussion so I did a quick search on the FOI forum. Some interesting discussion here (and some lifetime suspensions LoL).

For me, the GOAT revolves around Orr, Gretz and Mario. Orr did things that no one else could do, and the only one who came close was Lidstrom, but he was still miles away.

It's the same case with Wayne, but he had all those superstars around him, and he played in an era when goalies didn't know how to goalie. It begs the question, if Mario had the same type of team around him, surely he would have had 90+ goal seasons and 212+ point seasons.

I have a hard time really saying definitively who the GOAT is, but one thing is for sure. It annoys me when people say, Oh it's Wayne and there's absolutely no discussion. It's not even close. There is a lot of nuance around anointing the best over different eras.

I'm leaning towards Orr.

[handgroen]

Well the Oilers thread turned into a GOAT discussion so I did a quick search on the FOI forum. Some interesting discussion here (and some lifetime suspensions LoL).

For me, the GOAT revolves around Orr, Gretz and Mario. Orr did things that no one else could do, and the only one who came close was Lidstrom, but he was still miles away.

It's the same case with Wayne, but he had all those superstars around him, and he played in an era when goalies didn't know how to goalie. It begs the question, if Mario had the same type of team around him, surely he would have had 90+ goal seasons and 212+ point seasons.

I have a hard time really saying definitively who the GOAT is, but one thing is for sure. It annoys me when people say, Oh it's Wayne and there's absolutely no discussion. It's not even close. There is a lot of nuance around anointing the best over different eras.

I'm leaning towards Orr.

i think it's fair to say that the gap between wayne and the rest is more significant than the gap between jordan and the rest for example.
from a stats standpoint wayne might have been the most dominant athlete in history.
the record book belongs to wayne gretzky it's kind of ridiculous.

[CliffFletcher]

Gretzky had the best career.

But if I'm the GM of a team starting the Stanley Cup Final series and I can have any player at his peak on my roster, I take Mario.

[troutman]

Ali, bomaye.

[JiriHrdina]

Gretzky had the best career.

But if I'm the GM of a team starting the Stanley Cup Final series and I can have any player at his peak on my roster, I take Mario.

Yup. This for me too.
Gretz had durability and a better supporting cast to help him.
Mario though is the output of creating the ultimate hockey player. He is a video game player in real life.

[dissentowner]

What is with all this Roy is the greatest talk? Did people forget about Hasek?

[Enoch Root]

Gretzky and Orr. They were both so dominant, they changed the game.

Though I do agree that, for a series, at their bests, Mario would serve just as well.

[Robbob]

I think it is super close between the players. I also think Gretzky had a bit of a benefit of a perfect storm that IMO inflated his point total a bit. You had recent expansion/absorbing the WHA. The talent pool was rather shallow and spread thin where the difference between high end talent was rather significant coupled with an absolute jackpot in talent on a single team. Did they have five or six hall of famers from those teams? Mario didn't play with any future hall of famers until the 90's.

[Dion]

Gretzky and Orr. They were both so dominant, they changed the game.

Though I do agree that, for a series, at their bests, Mario would serve just as well.

I'd want Mario as my forward and Orr on defence.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I'm for Orr.

I can certainly see the argument for Gretzky, he has the longevity, his career wasn't a what-if. It's simply there for all to see.

Lemieux's ailments, while unfortunate to say the least, don't leave room for a ton of what-if. His back injury was when he was 24? Hodgkin's when he was 27. We've seen enough elite forwards to know that we usually see a peak or near peak prior to those ages. 27 year old Lemieux had a remarkable half-season, and even 30+ Lemieux had some amazing partial seasons. No doubt he closes the gap on Gretzky's records if he would have been healthy, but I feel like we did get to see "peak" Lemieux, even if it was just for a couple seasons/partial seasons.

On the other hand, I don't think we did get to see peak Orr. The guy's first knee injury happened before he entered the league. He missed time in his first season because of his knee. By the time he was 20, he wasn't able to play a game without feeling excruciating pain and having to ice his knee every game. It was so degenerate to the point he was playing on one leg by the time he was 25. He was all but out of the league by 27.

I know it's hard to compare him to today's players, but how many smooth skating offensive defensemen have their best seasons at 21? It's a lot rarer than those that go on to peak in their late 20's.

Niedermayer's best seasons offensively came when he was 30+. Lidstrom was 36 for his best offensive season. Lidstrom, like Niedermayer, was 30 by the time he got his first Norris. Karlsson's career high was last year with 82 points in 82 games as a 26 year old. Even Coffey was 24 for his best season offensively. It's not that crazy to think that we were robbed of seeing a peak Orr that would have made the 21 year old, Art Ross winning, Orr look weak in comparison. If he could win the Art Ross at 26 with one good knee, imagine what he would have done with two...

[curves2000]

I say Gretz was the best of all time and nobody will even come close to getting similar numbers to him overall.

#99 is retired league wide, the Hockey Hall of Fame waived the mandatory 3 year waiting period for him and indicated they will never do so again for any player. In terms of production the guy was out of this world.

In the recent Heritage Classic game in Winnipeg, his filthy passing skills and hockey sense where 100% evident to be as he was playing far and above his other counterparts in the game. This also includes some of the best players the game has ever seen such as Jari Kurri etc

Bobby Orr was special but I never got to see him play since I am too young. His career was simply amazing but he wasn't able to live up to his full potential given the injuries.

Both Bobby Orr and Gretz have said simply put that Gordie Howe is the best ever. He had all the skills in terms of scoring, toughness, ruggedness, fighting and insane longevity.

Everybody has their own opinions but one way of looking at the numbers in favor of Gretzky was this.

He is the #1 goal scorer in NHL history and #1 in points. If you subtract every single goal he ever scored in the NHL he is still the leader in points based on assists. Ponder that for a minute and try to apply that to any other logic such as a business. The level of performance separation is incredible.

All of the players mentioned though are absolute quality players

[Oling_Roachinen]

Howe, Gretzky and Lemieux combined for a total of 0 Norris Trophies.

Bobby had eight by his 27th birthday.

[undercoverbrother]

Howe, Gretzky and Lemieux combined for a total of 0 Norris Trophies.

Bobby had eight by his 27th birthday.

pffft how many Vezina trophies did he have?

[undercoverbrother]

I am leaning toward Howe, based on how complete his game was.

I can't think of anything he couldn't do on the ice, skate, pass shoot, fight, check.

Also, and this is big for me longevity.

His first NHL season was 46-47, his last was 79-80 in which he scorted 41 pts in 80 games at the age of what 50? He was able to play and adapt to the game as it changed around him.

For me it is the longevity that really seals the deal.

[GreenLantern2814]

i think it's fair to say that the gap between wayne and the rest is more significant than the gap between jordan and the rest for example.
from a stats standpoint wayne might have been the most dominant athlete in history.
the record book belongs to wayne gretzky it's kind of ridiculous.

Mario played 915 NHL games and had 1723 points. I'll leave playoffs out of this.

He's a career 1.88 PPG player. Gretzky has 1487 regular season GP and 2857 points. Obviously that's insane, but it's only 0.04 PPG better than Lemieux. Gretzky is a career 1.92 PPG player.

If Mario had played the same number of games as Wayne, he ends up with 2796 points. That's without allowing for an increase in production due to more GP during the prime early years of his career.

Lemieux never played a full season, and while he plays 70+ games in four of his first five seasons, he doesn't get to that mark again until 1995-96. Conversely, Wayne played 70+ games his first eight years in the league, with his low point being a 74 game campaign in 83-84.

As things stand in real life, Wayne Gretzky would be the all time leading scorer if he'd never tallied a goal. I think, however, there's a compelling case to be made that a healthy Mario Lemieux finishes ahead of him.

But that's why they play the games. Maybe Lemieux would've been the best there ever. In real life, Gretzky is the GOAT.

If you add their playoff totals, this becomes a laugher for Gretzky. Wayne played 101 more playoff games than Mario, and scored 210 more playoff points. #### right off. I don't care how good your team is - it's not like Lemieux's team didn't also have Jaromir Jagr and Ron Francis in their 20s.

Wayne.

[flamesfever]

Bobby Orr. He was in a league of his own, a notch above everyone else on the ice.

[calgaryblood]

Mario Lemieux.

[Dion]

Howe, Gretzky and Lemieux combined for a total of 0 Norris Trophies.

Bobby had eight by his 27th birthday.

In addition Bobby won the Hart trophy 3 times and a couple of Conn Smythe and Art Ross trophies too. The only d man to win the Art Ross/scoring title also.

[Robbob]

Francis was closer to 30 by time he played in Pittsburgh

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Hasek.

Wait, I saw Roy so I just assumed we were talking about goalies. We're talking about goalies right?

[calgaryblood]

Hasek for goalies and Lemieux for forwards.

[Huntingwhale]

Gretzky. The numbers don't lie and he was a mile ahead of everyone else.

I know people like to say that Orr revolutionized the position. And he did. But eventually some other defencemen would have started playing like he did. The fact that Gretzky has 1000 more points then #2 on the list speaks volumes. No one can possibly come close to what he has for total points. His hardware. His peak. His longevity. His durability. His....everything. The best goal scorer. The best passer. The best vision. The list goes on.

I do think that Mario was physically the most well ''put together'' hockey player ever. But IMO it still doesn't reach peak Gretzky. But he was the closest.

For me the list is:

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe

Truthfully I think you could interchange #2-4 and still be correct.

[Hockey_Ninja]

It's objectively Gretzky no matter how you spin it. He has the numbers, longevity and hardware to back it up.

[GioforPM]

It's objectively Gretzky no matter how you spin it. He has the numbers, longevity and hardware to back it up.

Objectively?

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/9e/9e1ad677900a1339acb9529e1177f687d14303085caf2e3b67 eba9464d301195.jpg

[Strange Brew]

Definitely Orr for me. I will admit to having a nostalgic bias to my vote but he sparked my love for the game.

If not for injuries, he owns every record there is for defensemen. What a talent.

[Sandman]

I think that Wayne put up the numbers, so he will always be considered the greatest-but i think Lemieux is the greatest of all time. Gretzky put up his best numbers in the 80's before the clutch & grab era took hold in the early 90's. Conversely, Mario put up his best numbers when it became much harder to score. At that time, Gretz was playing for LA-and his numbers kept depleting. Also consider that during the 90's, Mario had alot to deal with in terms of injuries, and of course the Hodgkins ordeal. If he and Wayne were to switch places in the eighties, i think Mario would put up bigger numbers than Wayne did.

[codynw]

The only player even worth mentioning in the same conversation as Gretzky is Lemieuix. And he's only a "what if?" player.

[AcGold]

How is Lemieux not even in the equation? Number one for me easy.

[flamesfan1297]

For me it's Lemieux. Also my favorite player of all time, so I'd might be biased

[Jacks]

Lemieux scored 85 goals and 199 points in 76 games, at that time the league was averaging 1/2 goal less per game than when Gretzky had his best season of 212 points (he had 215 points but only 52 goals that year). Lemieux was involved in 57% of the goals that the Penguins scored that year which I believe is still a modern day record. Lemieux had Rob Brown on his wing, Brown scored 115 points that one year which is more than 25% of his career totals. Brown was a borderline NHLer without Lemieux and a 49 goal scorer with Mario bouncing pucks off of him. Given Gretzky's health, teammates and era I'm confident that Lemieux would have at least equaled his point totals.

[RougeUnderoos]

I think it is super close between the players. I also think Gretzky had a bit of a benefit of a perfect storm that IMO inflated his point total a bit. You had recent expansion/absorbing the WHA. The talent pool was rather shallow and spread thin where the difference between high end talent was rather significant coupled with an absolute jackpot in talent on a single team. Did they have five or six hall of famers from those teams? Mario didn't play with any future hall of famers until the 90's.

I don't know if those five or six Hall of Fame guys would be in the Hall if not for Gretzky. They certainly wouldn't have won all those Cups without him and that's what made their careers, IMO. Hell, without Gretzky, the Flames would have won a few more cups in the '80s.

Kurri turned into a great player obviously, but if the Leafs had drafted him instead, and he was on Bill Derlago's line through the 80's, things would have turned out very different for him.

Wayne would have done it no matter where he played, and brought a different bunch of guys along for the ride.

[MRCboicgy]

Gretzky. He was only an illegal stick away from bringing the Cup to California. ;)

[calumniate]

I wonder what Don Cherry would think?

[SixtySix]

I think Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr are in their own tier and any of them can make a legitimate argument for greatest of all time. IMO it's Mario, but you can't back it up by stats alone. You have to actually watch him play to understand the level of talent he possesses. Same for Orr. The GOAT doesn't mean the player who had the most successful career. It's not a conversation purely about who put up the most points or who won the most cups. Obviously Gretzky had the most successful career of any player. There are many factors that go into this far beyond Gretzky's raw individual ability as a hockey player. Also ROFL @ Messier > Lemieux.

I think Howe is 4th in his own tier, and I'd put Roy somewhere between 5-10.

[powderjunkie]

Language is the key thing here: greatest =/= best.

"Greatest" discussion should include longevity and winning. Gretzky all the way for me here. 2nd place becomes a very interesting conversation depending how you weigh things...it's possible to argue Lidstrom, Howe, or Messier (groan) might even rank Mario and Orr. If you're going to own a hockey team for the next 25 years, do you want 10 amazing years from the latter, or 20+ 'great' years from the former?

"Best" to me is who you want on your team for a single gold medal game, or Stanley Cup Final series. Mario, Orr and Gretz all did unprecedented things on the ice. Pick any of them out of a hat and I'm happy. If I had to pick I'd take Mario, because I'm too young to appreciate Bobby and the Oilers suck. Lindros and Richard factor very high into this discussion too.

Factoring goalies into the discussion is tough. Brodeur was 'great' and Hasek might be the best...Roy might rank 1st/2nd in both categories. I think the evolution of the game makes it harder to compare goalies over different eras than skaters.

[Erick Estrada]

I saw Gretzky in his prime and IMO Lemieux was the best player I have ever seen. I don't think I will ever see a hockey player in my lifetime as good as Lemieux again.

[Oil Stain]

Lemieux scored 85 goals and 199 points in 76 games, at that time the league was averaging 1/2 goal less per game than when Gretzky had his best season of 212 points (he had 215 points but only 52 goals that year). Lemieux was involved in 57% of the goals that the Penguins scored that year which I believe is still a modern day record. Lemieux had Rob Brown on his wing, Brown scored 115 points that one year which is more than 25% of his career totals. Brown was a borderline NHLer without Lemieux and a 49 goal scorer with Mario bouncing pucks off of him. Given Gretzky's health, teammates and era I'm confident that Lemieux would have at least equaled his point totals.

I find it interesting that Paul Coffey happened to be skating around in Edmonton and Pittsburgh when the two greatest players of the era were hanging around the 200 point mark.

Gretzky never hit 180 points again after Coffey left town. Gretzky went from 164->215 when Coffey broke out in his second season.

Lemieux went 107->168->199 in Coffey's first three seasons.

Coffey left to Detroit and Fedorov hit 100 points two out of the three seasons Coffey was there. The other season was the first lockout year. Fedorov never came close to the same production again.

Maybe its coincidence, or maybe Paul Coffey was the ultimate octane booster for offensive fowards. Maybe a bit of both.

[SixtySix]

Language is the key thing here: greatest =/= best.

"Greatest" discussion should include longevity and winning. Gretzky all the way for me here. 2nd place becomes a very interesting conversation depending how you weigh things...it's possible to argue Lidstrom, Howe, or Messier (groan) might even rank Mario and Orr. If you're going to own a hockey team for the next 25 years, do you want 10 amazing years from the latter, or 20+ 'great' years from the former?

"Best" to me is who you want on your team for a single gold medal game, or Stanley Cup Final series. Mario, Orr and Gretz all did unprecedented things on the ice. Pick any of them out of a hat and I'm happy. If I had to pick I'd take Mario, because I'm too young to appreciate Bobby and the Oilers suck. Lindros and Richard factor very high into this discussion too.

Factoring goalies into the discussion is tough. Brodeur was 'great' and Hasek might be the best...Roy might rank 1st/2nd in both categories. I think the evolution of the game makes it harder to compare goalies over different eras than skaters.

This is fair, but I do think it's very difficult to separate greatest and best. While it's totally fine to cite Gretzky's longevity and success as reasons to consider him the GOAT, I still don't think there are other players 'greater' than Lemieux or Orr despite having more cups or more games played etc. For example Orr shouldn't lose "greatness points" as punishment for being so good that mercilessly attacking his knees was the only way for opposition to try to contain him. Lemieux should not be considered below Messier because he happened to have debilitating back problems and cancer. That's why it's tough for me to break it up into two distinct categories, instead I just consider the GOAT to be the best pure hockey player.

[Kjesse]

If you teleport in time and put Lemieux in Gretzky's place, and Gretzky in Lemieux's place, I think-- as in guess -- that Lemieux would have better stats than Gretzky. He was the more complete player, and played in an era where things were much more difficult.

"Would have" does not matter though. It pretty hard to discount Gretzky's stats. He's in a class of his own.

[powderjunkie]

This is fair, but I do think it's very difficult to separate greatest and best. While it's totally fine to cite Gretzky's longevity and success as reasons to consider him the GOAT, I still don't think there are other players 'greater' than Lemieux or Orr despite having more cups or more games played etc. For example Orr shouldn't lose "greatness points" as punishment for being so good that mercilessly attacking his knees was the only way for opposition to try to contain him. Lemieux should not be considered below Messier because he happened to have debilitating back problems and cancer. That's why it's tough for me to break it up into two distinct categories, instead I just consider the GOAT to be the best pure hockey player.

Couldn't you just call him the BOAT then? Personally, I think 'best' is actually a stronger word than 'greatest'. Best simply means better than everyone else. "Greater" than everyone else isn't the same to me...it's just having more "greatness" than everyone else...which doesn't necessarily mean you were better...

[Jacks]

Lemieux went 107->168->199 in Coffey's first three seasons.
No question that one of the best offensive defencemen ever helped both players. Lemieux did score 69 goals and 160 points in 60 games the year after Coffey left though and 161 points in 70 games 2 years later, of course by then he had much better linemates.

[N-E-B]

Gretzky. His numbers are insane and likely will never be matched.

Lemieux 2nd.

Orr for defenseman.

Goalies I have a tough time with. The three names that keep coming to me are Brodeur, Hasek, and Roy so I'd go with one of them, I just can't decide which one.

[vanisleflamesfan]

Gretzky. But... I am willing to entertain the debate that IF Lemieux had stayed healthy, he would have made it a very, very close comparison.

[カナダ人です]

For me it's Mario Lemieux

[Snuffleupagus]

I hated Gretzky as much as I loved #4, a healthy Orr for 5 more years would have made it a real discussion but the sheer numbers point to Wayne.

[Timbo]

John Scott, debate over, close thread. ;)

[Oling_Roachinen]

I know people like to say that Orr revolutionized the position. And he did. But eventually some other defencemen would have started playing like he did.

But even with Orr we still haven't seen a defensemen play like Orr since.

Karlsson finishing fourth in league scoring was a remarkable season last year. It was the first time in 30 years that a defensemen finished in the top 5 for league scoring, Coffey finishing third in 1986 was the last time that happened. Coffey finished 77 points behind Gretzky, Karlsson finished 24 behind Kane.

Orr finished first (twice). When he won the Art Ross with 120 in 1970, he finished 21 points ahead of second place, and teammate Esposito, he finished 34 points ahead of third place Mikita. It's the equivalent of last season's Kane destroying the race...except Orr was also by far the best defensive player in the league.

The following seasons he finished second (only behind Esposito), second (again), third (this time Clarke as well as Esposito scored more), second and finally won his second Art Ross before pretty much being forced to quit.

To say someone has played like Orr would require Karlsson to become the absolute best defensive defensemen in the league without room for argument...while putting up more points more consistently. Until that happens, which it won't, there hasn't been a defensemen to come along and play like Orr. He did open up the door for offensive defensemen but there has never been a complete package like him.

[Robbob]

I don't know if those five or six Hall of Fame guys would be in the Hall if not for Gretzky. They certainly wouldn't have won all those Cups without him and that's what made their careers, IMO. Hell, without Gretzky, the Flames would have won a few more cups in the '80s.

Kurri turned into a great player obviously, but if the Leafs had drafted him instead, and he was on Bill Derlago's line through the 80's, things would have turned out very different for him.

Wayne would have done it no matter where he played, and brought a different bunch of guys along for the ride.

They may not have been how but it goes to show you the caliber of players on that team vs who Mario played with. Also Oil Stain's comment about Coffey are interesting.

[AltaGuy]

Gretzky. His numbers are insane and likely will never be matched.

Lemieux 2nd.

Orr for defenseman.

Goalies I have a tough time with. The three names that keep coming to me are Brodeur, Hasek, and Roy so I'd go with one of them, I just can't decide which one.

Hasek was the best goalie I've ever seen by a country mile. Like, not even close in my opinion. He was the best player in the world in the late 90s at any position. Roy and Brodeur were great, but not in the same league.

Between Gretzky and Lemieux, it's tough for me. I think Gretzky is number one, but - like Hasek - I've never seen a better player, including Gretzky, than Lemieux.

I love Bernie Nicholls though. He's always my go-to for just how much Gretzky made players around him better. "Name the players who have scored 150 points in a season." Lemieux helped a lot of players achieve good totals, but no one benefited more from another player than Bernie Nicholls in 88-89.

[Erick Estrada]

Gretzky. His numbers are insane and likely will never be matched.

Lemieux 2nd.

Orr for defenseman.

Goalies I have a tough time with. The three names that keep coming to me are Brodeur, Hasek, and Roy so I'd go with one of them, I just can't decide which one.

This is true because goaltenders will never be as bad or as small as they were in the 80's which was the golden age for scoring in the post original six NHL. Getting 100 points then was like getting 70 points now and if you look at a lot of the Gretzky highlights a lot of his goals would get stopped by beer league goaltenders today. Now that doesn't take away that he was the best of his peers but everything is relative and some of those crazy stats aren't nearly as impressive as they look when you consider how much easier it was to score goals in an era where Brian Bellows and Rob Brown could put up 100 point seasons. People talk a lot about the Oilers 400 goal seasons but the Flames recorded a 397 GF in 87/88 and were regularly at or above the 350 GF mark as goals were a plenty in that era.

Safe to say that few if any of the 80's or early 90's scoring records will be broken as long as the nets stay the same size.

[moncton golden flames]

Mario Lemieux, no doubt in my mind.

[Oling_Roachinen]

This is true because goaltenders will never be as bad or as small as they were in the 80's which was the golden age for scoring in the post original six NHL.

...everything is relative and some of those crazy stats aren't nearly as impressive as they look when you consider how much easier it was to score goals in an era...

The 1970's top 3 scorers:
Esposito - 1087
Lafleur - 941
Dionne - 928

The 1980's top 3 scorers:
Stastny - 1059
Kurri - 1043
Savard - 1013

The 1990's top 3 scorers:
Jagr - 958
Sakic - 896
Oates - 896

Remove Gretzky and it doesn't look that different between the three decades for the top scorers.

But with Gretzky...
The 1980's top 3 scorers:
Gretzky - 1842
Stastny - 1059
Kurri - 1043

It's obvious scoring was up in the 80's. But it was up as much as people seem to think it was, why did no one else break 1800 points? 1700? 1600? 1500? 1400? 1300? 1200? Heck, not a single other person broke 1100 in the 80's. Gretzky broke 1800...let that sink in.

Okay let's look at single season records. Gretzky broke 200 points four times, no one else could. Outside of Lemieux, only two other people broke 150 points. Yzerman with 155 and Nicholls with 150....while playing with Gretzky. Gretzky broke 150 points nine times...

[RougeUnderoos]

This is true because goaltenders will never be as bad or as small as they were in the 80's which was the golden age for scoring in the post original six NHL. Getting 100 points then was like getting 70 points now and if you look at a lot of the Gretzky highlights a lot of his goals would get stopped by beer league goaltenders today. Now that doesn't take away that he was the best of his peers but everything is relative and some of those crazy stats aren't nearly as impressive as they look when you consider how much easier it was to score goals in an era where Brian Bellows and Rob Brown could put up 100 point seasons. People talk a lot about the Oilers 400 goal seasons but the Flames recorded a 397 GF in 87/88 and were regularly at or above the 350 GF mark as goals were a plenty in that era.

Safe to say that few if any of the 80's or early 90's scoring records will be broken as long as the nets stay the same size.

It was a crazy high scoring era for sure, but it was still the best players in the world, including the goalies.

I don't think a beer league goalie of today is at quite the same level that Reggie Lemelin or Brian Hayward or Patrick Roy were back in the day.

Reggie's 62 years old and I'd bet he could still stone every beer leaguer in town.

[Erick Estrada]

It was a crazy high scoring era for sure, but it was still the best players in the world, including the goalies.

I don't think a beer league goalie of today is at quite the same level that Reggie Lemelin or Brian Hayward or Patrick Roy were back in the day.

Reggie's 62 years old and I'd bet he could still stone every beer leaguer in town.

Well sure the best of that era would be at a higher level but how about all the average to below average goaltenders of that era? I'm willing to bet there are beer league goaltenders with today's equipment that would be able to get their bodies in front of a lot of those shots. Take a look at some of the goals Lemelin let in when he played for the Flames in the 80's as some are brutally weak due to the equipment and the stand up style that left the corners of the net open. Take a look at some of the goals scored in that era on the average goaltenders. Most of them would be considered very weak goals by today's standards.

[Northendzone]

at first I thought the OP was comparing Gretz to Derek Roy.

[GioforPM]

Hasek was the best goalie I've ever seen by a country mile. Like, not even close in my opinion. He was the best player in the world in the late 90s at any position. Roy and Brodeur were great, but not in the same league.

Between Gretzky and Lemieux, it's tough for me. I think Gretzky is number one, but - like Hasek - I've never seen a better player, including Gretzky, than Lemieux.

I love Bernie Nicholls though. He's always my go-to for just how much Gretzky made players around him better. "Name the players who have scored 150 points in a season." Lemieux helped a lot of players achieve good totals, but no one benefited more from another player than Bernie Nicholls in 88-89.

Was Nicholls a bigger beneficiary than Rob Brown in 88-89 and 89-90?

[albertGQ]

Phil Esposito also broke 150 points when he registered 76 goals and 76 assists.

[RougeUnderoos]

Well sure the best of that era would be at a higher level but how about all the average to below average goaltenders of that era? I'm willing to bet there are beer league goaltenders with today's equipment that would be able to get their bodies in front of a lot of those shots. Take a look at some of the goals Lemelin let in when he played for the Flames in the 80's as some are brutally weak due to the equipment and the stand up style that left the corners of the net open. Take a look at some of the goals scored in that era on the average goaltenders. Most of them would be considered very weak goals by today's standards.

I suppose that a beer leaguer in giant equipment would cover more of the net, but Wayne and whoever else in the discussion would still be able to burn them just like they did Doug Soetart and Warren Skorodenski.

Our attitude towards the 80's seems very dismissive, like they were a bunch of scrubs and it was a cakewalk for the rare skilled player. Whether or not Gretzky was the greatest player of them all is up for debate and that's the fun/pointless part, but what's not up for debate is that any player from any era thought it was easy.

Rocket Richard and Gordie Howe were playing against guys who smoked cigarettes on the bench and goalies who didn't wear masks. Howie Morenz would skate around a defenseman with tuberculosis to shoot on a goalie with a wad of cotton batten up his ass because he had dysentery.

We don't poo-poo the things these guys did! No pun intended.

Maybe I'm just sensitive because I loved hockey in the 80's.

[Lanny'sDaMan]

Well the Oilers thread turned into a GOAT discussion so I did a quick search on the FOI forum. Some interesting discussion here (and some lifetime suspensions LoL).

For me, the GOAT revolves around Orr, Gretz and Mario. Orr did things that no one else could do, and the only one who came close was Lidstrom, but he was still miles away.

It's the same case with Wayne, but he had all those superstars around him, and he played in an era when goalies didn't know how to goalie. It begs the question, if Mario had the same type of team around him, surely he would have had 90+ goal seasons and 212+ point seasons.

I have a hard time really saying definitively who the GOAT is, but one thing is for sure. It annoys me when people say, Oh it's Wayne and there's absolutely no discussion. It's not even close. There is a lot of nuance around anointing the best over different eras.

I'm leaning towards Orr.


Thanked for ressurecting this thread and letting the other one get back to business ;)

[BigTuna]

Gretzky. More assists alone than anyone has total points. He has insane numbers that beats anything in any sport.

[foofighter15]

Wait, things I posted on the Internet from 2008 still exist? Dear god...

[1qqaaz]

Gretzky, then Orr, Howe, Lemieux.

[timbit]

IMO, Orr, and not even close.

Changed the game forever.

[Snuffleupagus]

IMO, Orr, and not even close.

Changed the game forever.
While Orr was the player responsible it could also be said if it wasn't for Harry Sinden telling Orr to play up like a 4th forward it may never have happened.

Esposito said it was the second most important thing to happen in 1969 :eek:

[MarkGio]

I couldn't take Orr over Gretzky or Lemieux because Orr played through an era where the league went from 6 teams to 18. And Orr had a short career, so all of a sudden the league needs to fill rosters with warm bodies.

Think about that. In less that ten years the needed to obtain 260 jobs, so where did these guys come from? The draft? Well based on a quick Google search, only 19% of NHL picks play NHL games, and this where there's over 400 jobs[1]. Keep in mind, Europeans did not play in the league back then, with the Red Curtain and all that. S

So this massive surge in players meant that most of the league was filled with amateurs. So yeah, a defenseman like Orr could just weave his way through all these guys. It was also a time where players had a smoke on the bench and some guys had other jobs besides playing hockey.

Gretzky played in a more stable league that has only expanded from Orr's 18 to the 10 years of 22 teams, and that last expansion came from an already organized hockey league (WHA). And Lemieux played in another massive surge in jobs during his tenure of the last 8 teams to make up the current 30.

So look at Vegas roster. It's not exactly going to be the dream team when it's taking guys like Kulak or Jokipakka from the Flames. Imagine the kind of competitors that happens when a league goes from six to 18 teams in a short period of time, and during those expansions, teams weren't giving away their good talent like they are with next year's expansion draft.

Bobby Orr was playing against mostly amateurs IMO, so no, he's not in the conversation as GOAT.

[1]http://proicehockey.about.com/od/prospects/f/draft_success.htm

[SixtySix]

I couldn't take Orr over Gretzky or Lemieux because Orr played through an era where the league went from 6 teams to 18. And Orr had a short career, so all of a sudden the league needs to fill rosters with warm bodies.

Think about that. In less that ten years the needed to obtain 260 jobs, so where did these guys come from? The draft? Well based on a quick Google search, only 19% of NHL picks play NHL games, and this where there's over 400 jobs[1]. Keep in mind, Europeans did not play in the league back then, with the Red Curtain and all that. S

So this massive surge in players meant that most of the league was filled with amateurs. So yeah, a defenseman like Orr could just weave his way through all these guys. It was also a time where players had a smoke on the bench and some guys had other jobs besides playing hockey.

Gretzky played in a more stable league that has only expanded from Orr's 18 to the 10 years of 22 teams, and that last expansion came from an already organized hockey league (WHA). And Lemieux played in another massive surge in jobs during his tenure of the last 8 teams to make up the current 30.

So look at Vegas roster. It's not exactly going to be the dream team when it's taking guys like Kulak or Jokipakka from the Flames. Imagine the kind of competitors that happens when a league goes from six to 18 teams in a short period of time, and during those expansions, teams weren't giving away their good talent like they are with next year's expansion draft.

Bobby Orr was playing against mostly amateurs IMO, so no, he's not in the conversation as GOAT.

[1]http://proicehockey.about.com/od/prospects/f/draft_success.htm

No, only Orr could do it. There isn't any other defenseman "like Orr", hence why he's in the conversation for GOAT. Do you consider Crosby the GOAT? He has the highest average level of competition around him due to the era he plays in, and if Orr is discredited due to the quality of his peers, Crosby should surely be your choice right? But few would choose Crosby despite being the best player of this generation. The reason for this is because players should be judged by how dominating they are/were in comparison to their peers. He may be the best of today's NHL, but he isn't other-worldly like Bobby Orr was. Your argument that Orr wasn't so great because his competition was weak falls apart when you consider that there wasn't any other player from that era who had even a remotely similar impact as Bobby Orr, even against the same "amateur" competition Orr allegedly played against. The general consensus is that there are only two other players in the history of the NHL who were as far ahead of everybody else in their time - Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky. That's why these are the three players that people consider to be the GOAT.

[SixtySix]

Couldn't you just call him the BOAT then? Personally, I think 'best' is actually a stronger word than 'greatest'. Best simply means better than everyone else. "Greater" than everyone else isn't the same to me...it's just having more "greatness" than everyone else...which doesn't necessarily mean you were better...

Fitting that Gretzky is known as 'The Great One' and Lemieux literally translates to "the best".

[FlamesAddiction]

Gretzky then Orr.

I think the only way to assess this fairly is to look at how good the player was relative to their peers at the time. Gretzky was just light years ahead of his peers it was insane. More so than guys like Howe and Lemieux.

Same thing with Orr during his peak. i do wonder what more Lemieux could have done without the back problems and cancer though.

[Oling_Roachinen]

So this massive surge in players meant that most of the league was filled with amateurs. So yeah, a defenseman like Orr could just weave his way through all these guys. It was also a time where players had a smoke on the bench and some guys had other jobs besides playing hockey.

1970:
Bobby Orr - 120
Phil Esposito - 99
Stan Mikita - 86
Phil Goyette - 78
Walt Tkaczuk - 77

That's the top 5 point scorers in 1970. If it was so easy for 'defenseman like Orr' how come the second place defensemen got 44 points..a third of what Orr got. How come no other player could break 100 points if they were playing against all these scrubs?


Here's the top 3 scorers the year after expansion:

Mikita - 87
Esposito - 84
Howe - 82

The top players of the time, without question, and three hall of famers. They couldn't break 90 points.

Bobby ####ing Hull was 28 years old that year. Bobby Hull (and remember this is the guy who between 1966 and 1968 had the NHL record for most points in a season) in the post-expansion year he put up 75 points. It's insulting to the other absolute greats like Hull to suggest that anyone could go and do what Orr did. One of the greatest forwards of the game ever, in his prime, could not do what Orr did.

When Orr won his first Art Ross with 120 points, only Esposito has scored more...ever. The league record was 126 points. Behind them was Hull with his 107.

[Jacks]

Gretzky was just light years ahead of his peers it was insane. More so than guys like Howe and Lemieux.
Disagree, Lemieux would regularly skate through a whole team with two defencemen hanging off him, undress them both then deke the goalie. And these weren't scrubs either, he was making guys like Bourque and Leetch look like pylons.

[jlh2640]

Gretzky